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  • scavio - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Seems odd that you compare the display to an iPad 4 and say you won't even bother comparing it to other android tablets. As far as I can tell you don't even include the iPad 4 in any of the graphs except pixel density and do include a bunch of android tablets. Reply
  • andykins - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I noticed that too. You should include the retina ipad display in the graphs imo. Also redefines has been misspelt on the final paragraph of final words.

    Good article. Tempting :)
    Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Fixed :) Reply
  • scavio - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Thanks! The numbers really are close, I'm impressed. Reply
  • jiffylube1024 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Some of the tests (eg 3d mark) don't run on iOS, which explains the ipad 4's absence. Reply
  • mmarafie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    The comparison to the iPad 4 is a way to detract from the real competitor to Nexus 7, the iPad mini. Not only does the Nexus 7 offer much better color accuracy than the iPad mini, it also has double the pixel density at 323 compared to 163...Anand calls the SOC in the N7 "performance mainstream" which has a Quad Core Krait @ 1.5GHz and 2GB RAM. Yet he omits to mention the paltry (2 year old) SOC in the iPad mini a Cortex A8 based Dual Core CPU running 1GHz with 512MB RAM and a GPU that is less than half the power of the Adreno 320 in the N7... Reply
  • mmarafie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Yes in general, apps are still slightly better optimized on iOS, but Android apps are closing in fast not only in quantity but also in quality. So a properly optimized app on N7 can easily get 2 to 4x CPU/GPU power compared to iPad mini. Also Anand omits mentioning the price deference between the N7 at only $240 compared with the iPad mini at $340. I understand the better build quality on the iPad, but paying $100 more for the comparatively pixelated screen and weak hardware of the iPad mini is just plain ridiculous...For the 32GB 4G version it gets even worse, the N7 costs only $350, while the iPad mini costs $660! Is this a joke or what? Again Anand omits to mention any of that... Reply
  • mmarafie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Sorry, meant to say $560 for the 32GB 4G version of the iPad mini Reply
  • dyc4ha - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Well, the fact that it is being compared to Apple's flagship tablet says mighty much already... I do not see the need to compare it directly with the Mini because, well, there isn't a comparison. I enjoyed the review btw, keep it up! Reply
  • mmarafie - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    If someone is in the market for a smaller tablet say in the 7 to 8" size range, then they would be looking at say the Nexus 7, iPad mini, Galaxy Tab 3 and Note 8.0, Asus MeMo Pad etc. So these are the tablets that should be compared directly with each other in review. Although it's still a good idea to have benchmarks of the larger tablets for comparison too.

    To me the review is incomplete and omitting some variables that could help the buyer make an informed decision.
    Reply
  • coldpower27 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Though bare in mind iPad mini is an old device due for a refresh in the Fall. A Retina display version, with a lower power A6X chip would do wonders. Unless you really love iOS, and the features Apple gives with their product, spec wise the Android tablet has them beat. But specs has never been all that is important when it came to these products. User experience is still key. Reply
  • looper - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Coldpower27, I agree. Imagine the cost of a possible upcoming iPad Mini w/ Retina display.

    I wonder how much bigger one can make the default font size on the new Nexus7. My eyesight is not the best.

    Oh, BTW, the word is "bear", not "bare"; and "specs *have* never been", not "has never been"... sorry.
    Reply
  • mmarafie - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Yes of course :) When the new iPad mini is released that's when you'll see the Anand compare directly with the Nexus 7, and talk about how amazing the CPU/GPU in the mini are while again omitting mention of the price difference (probably double the cost of the N7) or any other strengths the N7 might have (higher ppi, more RAM, faster CPU etc).

    I'm still waiting for the review of the Nexus 10 which got released last year around the same time as iPad 4 (I own both), and the iPad 4 got the review in December while the Nexus 10 just got a preview.
    Reply
  • weiran - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    > any other strengths the N7 might have (higher ppi, more RAM, faster CPU etc).

    If a Retina iPad mini is released, it will have a higher PPI than this N7. And we all know that comparing specs in tablets is pointless if the comparison involves different OSes.
    Reply
  • mmarafie - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Well define Retina please? If I'm not mistaken Apple considers 300 ppi and higher displays as Retina, yet the iPad 4 only has a 264 ppi display. The new Nexus 7 is over the 300 ppi magic number at 323. For the iPad mini to have a higher ppi than that it will need a higher resolution screen than the full HD one of the N7. It will need the same resolution as the iPad 4 (2048x1536) or higher. Its possible the new iPad mini will be released with a high res screen so we'll have to wait and see. Reply
  • kascollet - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Retina is an Apple world, they can put it on whatever device they want but it always means :
    - pixels not visible at usual distance (more than 300 for a phone, more than 200 for a laptop, I between for a tablet...)
    - high res is obtained by quadrupling the pixel count and thus conserving screen ratio and graphical elements size (makes all apps immediately compliant).

    So if a Retina iPad Mini is made, it WILL feature a 2K x 1.5K resolution like the iPad 4.
    Reply
  • retrospooty - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    "Retina is an Apple world, they can put it on whatever device they want but it always means :
    - pixels not visible at usual distance "

    With a disclaimer - for 20/20 vision... Which is average eyesight, not above and not at all amongst the best. Most people with better eyesight may out around 400-450 DPI at 12 inches - some even higher.
    Reply
  • Fri13 - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link

    20/20 is for normal eye sight, and it is the for most people.
    For most people (<90%) the 300 DPI at 20cm distance is more than enough, they can not see differences between that and 150 DPI without using magnification glass (lope actually) and compare exactly same content. With PPI there is no difference either unless you start looking trough very small details like in fonts from distance of 5-10cm and it isn't good for your eyes anyways. At normal viewing distance with tablet is 35-40cm.

    When it comes to very good eye sight, last time what I read about the record (over decade ago) it was that a person could detect 6mm long string from distance of 2km, would be like display should have so high resolution that its density would be over 1.5 million on inch. But not even then a person with great eye sight could care less does display have a 150 PPI or 300 PPI.

    I had once a friend and her eye sight was very good, she could read a normal news paper font (10-11 points) from distance of 20 meters. You couldn't not believe it without being there testing it. It was just jaw dropping that you could take any page and present it to her from 20m distance and she could read it a loud (we didn't test longer distance). But it was amazing how she could read a traffic signs text from few kilometer distance. It was like having a hawk what can talk to you.

    The most important part in display pixel density is that font is rendered in manner it is clear to read. So you don't mistake letters and you don't need to spend much time quessing what letter is what.

    Like how many is whining about 72-90 PPI in their workstation/laptop displays? They can read it perfectly fine, they don't find them disturbing to have much lower pixel density in their much bigger computer screen, but then they whine about smartphones and tablets if it is below 300 PPI.
    Reply
  • retrospooty - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    "Well define Retina please?" - Retina is a marketing name Apple came up with for higher res screens. Apple fans, being a mostly non-technical bunch think it means something, but its arbitrary specs are just that... Arbitrary. 330+ isnt the end all be all of the DPI usefullness. The average eye cannot detect pixels at much higher DPI, but the other 1/2 of the world with above average eyesight can. IF you can see pixels, the higher hte better. If you cannot, save your $$$ and get something cheaper. Reply
  • abazigal - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Retina is actually a combination of both PPI and distance of the screen from your eyes.

    Apple would probably explain that since users tend to hold the ipad further away from their eyes compared to a smartphone, the ipad4 can still be considered retina despite its lower PPI.

    The ipad mini will likely have the same 2048x1536 display to maintain backwards compatibility with existing ipad apps. That gives it a PPI of 324 (same as iphone), putting it on par with the Nexus7.

    My, hardware certainly has come a long way.
    Reply
  • doobydoo - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Retina is an Apple marketing term but the science behind it is not Apple's to change.

    Put simply, a retina device is a device which, when used at a normal viewing distance (11 inches for smartphones, for example) does not have discernible pixels for people with 20/20 vision.

    That's the definition, period.

    Whether it's useful to you or not depends on whether you have 20/20 vision, or perhaps whether you hold your device closer or not.

    The iPad 4 is retina because it would typically be held further away from your eyes than a smartphone, whereas the Nexus 7 with its significantly smaller screen would be held closer (but also still qualifies as retina).

    For perfect vision, the absolute best you can find in anyone, ever, at 12 inches you'd be looking at a possible perception of 700 PPI.
    Reply
  • Fri13 - Thursday, November 14, 2013 - link

    Now after a longer time when both has been released, a Nexus 7 (the 2013 model) and iPad Mini (with Retina display) there is no actual difference.

    Nexus 7 has 323 PPI while iPad Mini has 326 PPI so the difference is only a 3 pixels what is nothing even if other would have only 150 PPI. As that is small enough to offer a sharp text and pictures and in this case both are over 320 PPI what is over twice needed to offer sharp text and pictures. The first gen iPad mini was 163 PPI what was enough, but for many it isn't "enough" because they want specs to be updated no matter if there are no reasons to do so.

    And you don't want to compare operating systems, it is useless as you don't want to compare filesystems, process schedulers, filesystem schedulers, memory management efficiency, network protocols stacks like TCP/IP or process threading etc etc. You want to compare only the graphical user interfaces like what user see, how they are designed (logic) and what functions does device offer for developers so users can post-install wanted software from different sources than just manufacturer own (so you can be in control of your device) and most important thing, how well does the devices work in ecosystem (== how well can all devices share data between each other no matter who is manufacturer or what software is used. Every device belongs to one and the same "ecosystem").
    Reply
  • darwinosx - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Android tablet apps are not close to iOS tablet apps in selection and quality. Anyone who owns a Nexus 10 knows this if they are truthful.
    There will be a new iPad Mini in a few weeks and Apple will settle all family business. The old iPad Mini sold dramatically better than the old Nexus 7 and this will be no different.
    What you and Anand don't mention is that Nexus devices are sold at cost.
    As I said earlier I have bought three of these as gifts in the last month or so. But the screen is too small for me and app quality and election is lacking. A retina iPad Mini is going to blow the doors off the Nexus 7 in sales. Watch.
    Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Well, no one ever argued that...

    The iPad mini will sell more, regardless of how the specs compare. That's simply because there's a lot of people in this world that want something they already know how to use, and iOS is what the learned at the beginning of the smartphone race.

    Now, that app selection thing: the advantage of the 7" form factor is that the apps built for phones aren't completely useless on this screen. After owning a N10 and now a 2013 N7 (with an iPad in between, mind you), I can say that the situation on the N10 was terrible. So many apps just didn't come close to being usable. The other bit is, I really don't use that many apps any more, so there may be some people in that camp. I can't say for sure due to my relatively small sample size (me and a few friends who care).

    All in all, Apple has no excuse if they don't show up with a retina-fied iPad mini this fall. Last year, it was argued that the mini doesn't have an awesome screen due to cost, availability, and the power drain it'd suffer. The 2013 N7 shows that it's completely possible to do in today's world, regardless of what was possible last year. I really do hope Apple shows up with a good competitor specs-wise, because I'd hate to not have a choice as far as small tablets are concerned. We hardly have a choice on the large tablet side as it is.
    Reply
  • mmarafie - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Agreed Reply
  • WarpGuN - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    crap apple will never compete spec-wise with Nexus they will always be behind. Overpriced crap designed for the non-geek, Android is dominating with smartphones and tablets Apple is losing market shares everyday Reply
  • akdj - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    WarpGun....what? Are you six years old? That's your offering to the discussion? Good grief....grow up a bit, then come back and join us for a real discussion. The two companies go back and forth every year beating each other in 'specs'. Just take a look at last years gear vs this years. Ridiculous comment, as the iPad (both mini and regular) are at the end of their cycle. And with this in mind, the iPad 4 still fairs pretty well against current competition even being a year old.
    The article hasn't anything to do with market share...but Apple has never 'lost' market share. Each iteration if iOS device has outsold the last. In fact, this past quarter the iPhone outsold YoY itself by an extra 5mil units. Get out of your basement, get a job, and try to contribute to the discussion at hand rather than spread your personal agenda
    The new nexus 7 is one helluva tablet. An excellent review from a legitimate reviewer to boot. Isn't that enough to make you 'happy' to be an Android fan?
    Reply
  • Miggleness - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    This is the first time I paid attention to the size difference between the Nexus and iPad Mini. That's another big factor in my next purchase and the Nexus just feels too small.

    Thanks for the review Anand. This is the reason I keep coming back to your site.... twice daily!
    Reply
  • ESC2000 - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Actually the nexus displays more on its screen than the mini because of how many more pixels the nexus has even though the mini's screen real estate is about a third bigger. I've messed with the two next to each other and the nexus looks way better. Of course the nexus is much newer. Still I expect the new mini to be either overpriced or underspecced... or both like the first mini. Reply
  • doobydoo - Monday, August 26, 2013 - link

    Actually, no it doesn't, because despite the increase in resolution, the Nexus doesn't shrink everything compared to its predecessor. It still displays less than the iPad Mini, because if it didn't everything would be too small.

    I also now don't believe that you've compared the two side by side because if you had, you would know this.
    Reply
  • ESC2000 - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    Actually I have. Go look at the picture on the first page of Anand's review. .. the nexus 7 shows a few more lines of the anandtech website than the mini. I'll admit that it should be more if what I said was absolutely true (ie, every the nexus shows 2x more pixels) but even if the nexus doesn't take full advantage of its pixel density, it still beats the ipad mini in how much it shows on the screen in most situations. Reply
  • ESC2000 - Monday, September 09, 2013 - link

    You do realize that selling more each iteration does not mean apple isn't losing market share since the tablet market has been growing exponentially... It's the same as how each iPhone sells more than the last but still iOS loses market share each year. If apple sells 5 million iPads in one quarter out of 10 million total tablets sold and then sells 6 million iPads the next out of 20 million sold, apple sold more in the second quarter but lost market share. Reply
  • WarpGuN - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    in your dreams Reply
  • kascollet - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Please stop spoiling this excellent tech-site. You don't belong here man. Reply
  • jl0329 - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    You clueless dumb shit. Reply
  • KPOM - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    The iPad mini is at the end of its product cycle.The Nexus 7 is at the beginning. Let's hold off for a month or so to see what Apple has in store before complaining that Anand didn't compare (no pun intended) apples to apples. True, if you are in the market today, what's on tap for next month is irrelevant, but even the mainstream sites latch on to rumors today, so most people realize that the WSJ/AllthingsD essentially leaked that the iPad is due for a refresh. Reply
  • sherlockwing - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    A month? I guess you haven't read the recent reports that the Retina Mini is pushed back to early 2014? iOS7 tablet apps is also lagging significantly behind iOS7 phone apps. Reply
  • abazigal - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Those remain unsubstantiated rumours. Besides, the next ipad isn't even announced yet. Expect apps to be rapidly updated once it is announced. Reply
  • EnzoFX - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    The comparison's to the ipad 4's screen is incredibly welcomed. I wanted the comparison quantified. Color accuracy I care about, the iPad 4 set the bar. There may be no cross-shopping, but for those that want a great calibrated screen, now we have 2 real options. Reply
  • danderson10k - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Another series of Android tablets to launch this month from tablet-maker Pipo Electronics, stand out for excellent build quality and price-performance -- the Pipo M7 Pro ($255) which for roughly the same price as the new Nexus 7, features an 8.9 inch display with 1900X1200 screen resolution that uses advanced Samsung PLS technology, along with a Quad core processor, and built-in GPS navigation -- and is packed with features that compare to the new Nexus... offering premium speakers, WiFi with both 2.4 and 5.0 GHz frequencies for greater connection, as well as the choice of using standard Android O/S or a Windows style User Interface that makes the Android experience much more intuitive and easier to use --

    The Pipo M9 Pro ($285) model offers a 10 inch version that compares closely to the new Nexus 10 and 3G HSPA+ is available with either model for $25 more and work with any GSM Carrier, including T-Mobile and AT&T, and an Android phone SIM card maybe used interchangeably with both phone and tablet.

    One of the first sources to carry the new Pipo tablet series is -- T a b l e t S p r i n t –- which also features a new Miracast TV adapter($39) that launched this week, which is similar to Google Chromecast -- but with a lot more features and performs much more like Apple's Airplay technology...
    Reply
  • darwinosx - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Was that an ad? because nobody is going to buy your Pipo chinese knockoff tablet. Reply
  • ESC2000 - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Um yeah that was clearly an ad which is annoying. On the other hand your elitism is also annoying. I'd gladly buy a Chinese knock off tablet if it was the best value and had the features I wanted. It's pretty pathetic to be as wed to one brand as you are. Reply
  • jl0329 - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    You duck fucking brat. Reply
  • cbeauche - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    The Nexus 7 2012 had a front facing camera. It's missing from the table. Reply
  • flashbacck - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Man, this is why Anandtech reviews are so great. Nearly tech blogs post horribly vague reviews in an effort to shit out something in the first 24 hours. I appreciate you guys taking your time. Reply
  • q5djC5b0aToy - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Page 4, first table's title is wrong. 2012 -> 2013 Reply
  • Anand Lal Shimpi - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I actually showed last year's model in that table since it was a bit worse in performance, we confirmed fstrim is working on both models though. Reply
  • KZ0 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Also, on page one, in the pixel density comparison, Nexus 7 has a resolution of 1900*120. Thin!

    Thanks for another good review.
    Reply
  • q5djC5b0aToy - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Ah, I guess I'm wrong, sorry about that. Reply
  • marc1000 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Hi Anand. Do you know what version of Google Maps came pre-installed with the Nexus 7? There are some issues with Maps 7.x update on google forums, maybe this version would cause the GPS to loose the fix too? Reply
  • Arbie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link


    No micro/SD card = no sale.

    One of the main reasons I would buy something like this is "media consumption". Nothing - including large internal memory - can compare to SD for swapping media sets in and out. Like.. 16GB in 5 sec. Plus you can carry any number of extra sets with you.

    The continued refusal of Google and Amazon to include SD is sad, at least for me. Fortunately, Samsung does do SD.
    Reply
  • sweenish - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    If it really came down to that for me, I'd go USB OTG with my wife's 1 TB WD Passport. Not as elegant as a microSD card, but I'm plunked down to watch something anyway.

    Otherwise, I'm streaming.
    Reply
  • sherlockwing - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    For me the 32GB is plenty for media consumption on a plane, I can get 47 hours of 720p down to 20G with handbrake and that last me a few days. When I run out of videos I just move in new ones from my laptop. Reply
  • bji - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    You watch alot of TV. 47 hours would last me about ... a year. Reply
  • just4U - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Bji, Some flights can be extremely long and by the sounds of it Sherlock might be one of those types of long haul commuters.. Hah New York To Japan a few times a month might do the trick in having your device stacked full of video. Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    USB OTG plus my 32GB SanDisk USB 3.0 flash drive ($37 during a Newegg deal)... It's wayyy quicker to transfer movies to that drive anyway (at close to 200MB/s, which no micro SD can touch).

    USB OTG works without root even, and I've been seeing small micro-sized flash drives with micro USB connectors if you really need something smaller than a regular flash drive + OTG cable dongle. The former are small enough to always leave plugged in, someone waseven running a kickstarter to sell one such drive.
    Reply
  • Diorarat - Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - link

    Does it work with the N7? Didn't the 2012 N7 lack usb otg support? Reply
  • darwinosx - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    That made me laugh out loud. Get used to it. Even Samsung will be giving up on sd cards. Because they suck. Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I think there's still a case to be made for them, even though USB OTG works great for me I can see situations where it's not too suitable as an alternative, like when giving a tablet to a child. Reply
  • ESC2000 - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    Do you just reflexively say anything sucks that apple products don't have? Reply
  • jl0329 - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    Your idiocy made my laugh out loud. You are truly clueless, aren't you? Reply
  • bznotins - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Is this new version polarized? The 2012 Nexus 7 was on the horizontal axis, precluding from me using it in that orientation as a nav device with my (also polarized) sunglasses on. Looks like a great tablet though. Reply
  • OzedStarfish - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Yes it is, for my unit it is almost entirely blocked when in landscape unfortunately. Reply
  • amdwilliam1985 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Good read, this is one of the very few article that actually praises on the new Nexus 7's battery life :) Reply
  • max1001 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I was expecting Gold since the review was all praises. lol. Reply
  • ikjadoon - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    If Anandtech compared this to all other 7" Android tablets, it'd be a gold. But, he might be taking the bigger picture: for myself, 7" is just too small, as well.

    It's portable, though, and for some people, that's more important.
    Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I'd prefer 8.9"... But until there's a Nexus 8 I'd rather deal with the size than any of the shortcomings on other current tablets. Reply
  • max1001 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I think it's better to have both. I have a 7" and a 9". Nexus 7 easily fit in my coat inner pocket and I can bring it with me everywhere. It's also a lot easier to handle on the subway. I can grip it by the side with 1 hand and not worry about dropping it. I user the 9" to watch Netflix and web browse when I am at home. Reply
  • mmarafie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I remember the old days when anandtech was the best tech site for reading awesome, detailed, and unbiased reviews. It seems those days are long gone, the more I read the reviews here (especially by Anand) the more I realize the site has become basically an advertising and marketing place for Apple. There are so many tell-tale signs in this review and others where its quite obvious.. Reply
  • DukeN - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Agreed.

    I automatically ignore Apple/iOS mentions and figure out my own comparisons to the rest.

    Anand, perhaps this can be a feature for you.
    Reply
  • RYF - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    It is always important to benchmark and compare against the best-selling 7 inch tablets. What is the point of comparing N7 against the half-hearted efforts shown in the recent Galaxy Tabs?

    I am not a fan of iOS. But I have to state that iOS is still, by far, the easiest mobile OS to be used by the majority.
    Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    It's not even about that, I appreciate the comparison too despite wanting nothing to do with any iOS device... Apple is still a premium hardware company so the comparisons ate entirely relevant. The day their devices aren't built up to snuff or their market share falls as far as Mac share has at times then the comparisons become irrelevant. Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Besides, Anand can mention Apple every other paragraph and the general comparison is still more unbiased (not to mention the review more in depth) than the vast majority of sites can manage... Reply
  • ESC2000 - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    I don't think the person complaining about Apple bias in this article is referring to the fact that the benchmarks included ipads. I think they are referring to the comments like (I'm paraphrasing) 'the new nexus is a downright Apple way to rev a product' as well as the constant comments about how aluminum is premium.

    People want to hear comparisons to the competition in reviews but it doesn't make sense for the review to be touting another product. No more backhanded compliments please ('a downright Apple way. ..').
    Reply
  • lmcd - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I came out of this review with "there's no way in hell to buy an iPad Mini right now and feel good about yourself."

    So, link me to what you just read please?
    Reply
  • sweenish - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Same.

    This review in no way made me think that an Apple tablet was more deserving of my money.
    Reply
  • jeffkibuule - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Considering Apple's tablets are 9 months old at this point, is there any different conclusion a reasonable person should make other than wait? Reply
  • ESC2000 - Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - link

    I didn't wait. Whatever Apple releases I know it will cost more and probably have less than the nexus 7 2013... or maybe it will be equivalent to the nexus and cost 2x as much and charge $100 for each 16 GB increase in storage ($40 for 16 GB increase on the nexus) not to mention $150 extra for cellular.

    Seriously what is there to wait for?
    Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Obvious troll is obvious. Reply
  • Diorarat - Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - link

    No offence but I'm not catching on what you mean by biased. Well what can you compare the N7 with the other than the iPad. You have to compare it with something and the iPad is definitely the best comparison. There are great android tablets in the market but I don't think they're as familiar to the consumers as the iPad. Besides, I think Anand is being fair to praise hardware that is excellent whether apple or android. Reply
  • solipsism - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    With the Amazon Kindle Fire having the same size display, aspect ratio, running Android (even if it is a more limited version of it), and being at the same $199 price point I wonder why the Kindle Fire isn't compared directly with the Nexus 7. Reply
  • jeffkibuule - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Because it's a more limited version of Android, and software really is everything. Unless you are really into Amazon's ecosystem or just absolutely love hacking software onto hardware, the Kindle Fire isn't a device that should be recommended over the Nexus 7 (2013). Reply
  • hugh2323 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Have you even used a Kindle Fire? They are so locked into Amazon they are useless as a general purpose tablet. And hacking them is not easy, if possible at all with newer models. Reply
  • BigLan - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I've had the GPS problem on 2 units now - took the first one back which wouldn't last more than 5 minutes without loosing a lock.

    I've avoided using the google maps/nav app which seems to have worked. I had one gps drop for the first 2 weeks (after copilot crashed) but after update Maps the other day the issues started up again. I uninstalled the update and disabled Maps and it seems to be working again.

    I know this is just an anecdote, but maybe it'll work for someone else.
    Reply
  • BigLan - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I think that's because Anand is one of the few sites that test at a standard brightness. Most of the other reviews will just use a standard % like 50% which on the new N7 is the same as running the 2012 model at 90% brighness.

    I haven't seen battery life as long as Anand's numbers though, even using auto brightness which seems like 30-50%, but I do use the gps and play some games which will impact battery life.

    It'd be nice to see an idle battery life test as I've seen people complaining about the device losing 10% of the charge daily when unplugged. I know that's be harder (and take much longer) to test, but I've noticed that my adroid devices do drain faster than ios ones do.
    Reply
  • teiglin - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    You don't need to remind Anandtech readers why brightness-calibrated battery tests are the only reasonable way to test battery life. Percentage tests crack me up every time I see them.

    I'd also be interested in seeing some sort of idle test, but the things that cause battery to drain while in "standby" are very hard to pin down. Fully power-gated current draw is going to be basically zero for any modern SoC, so that's not really at issue--what causes idle drain is things that wake the device, but usage varies so much that you could argue the issue is not testable--most people probably use push email, so how many emails do you get in a day? Some people may only get half a dozen, while others get hundreds or even more. Do you use Google Now and its location-seeking wakes? Do you let your social networking clients check all the time (some default to ridiculous levels like automatically checking every 15 minutes)?

    That doesn't even take into account smaller concerns like signal strength and bluetooth devices--my thoroughly unscientific testing puts the former at around a 1%/hr swing on my phone, while the latter can drain nearly 2%/hr despite being in deep sleep the whole time. I consider "good" idle drain on my phone to be under 1%/hr, though realistically I'm usually a bit higher than that.

    That's not to say the issue isn't worth investigating--I'd love to see testing using Brian's base station emulator, and a regular interval for waking with fixed workload at each wake--say, wake every 10 minutes, scan wifi/cellular for location, and receive 1MB of data, or something--but the fact remains that individual circumstances are going to be the absolutely dominant factor in any idle scenario.

    As a final note to your iOS comparison, iOS obviously has the advantage of tight controls over how apps can wake the device, so most people will have fewer issues with rogue apps causing high idle drain. Combined with the lack of aggressive Google Now location services, it's not hard to see why iOS tends to do better on battery than Android.
    Reply
  • jeffkibuule - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Brian Klug recently stated that an app like Reddit HD, a very popular Reddit client on Android, mindlessly checks for new messages every 15 minutes. That's incredibly wasteful and one of several reasons why Android battery life numbers can easily be all over the place depending on what you have installed. Reply
  • teiglin - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Exactly, dumb apps like that are why the plebs think android has bad battery life. It's unhelpful to said plebs to say "it's not Android's fault" since it is, as far as they know/care, but imo, if you have standby time issues but can't/won't use BetterBatteryStats or similar to determine why, then you're probably better off getting an iPhone (or Windows Phone, if that's your cup of tea). Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    That's totally accurate and yet a lot of people would take offense at it... Android gives you a bit more freedom, which is great for some, but it's just more rope to hang yourself with for others. I think both OS approaches have plenty of merit in this world. Reply
  • sprockkets - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    ever going to review the nexus 10? Reply
  • darwinosx - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I'll review it. It's a piece of junk with poor quality build, a washed out screen, and a really slow gpu. The iPad 4 blows the doors off it. Hows that? Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    You're an incredibly negative individual, do you know that? Everyone knows the iPad 4 is better than the N10. That's never really been a debate. The N10 also costs $100 less, so there's that.

    I agree with your essential assessment, though. In essence, it had build quality issues, and a dreadful screen in comparison to the N7 and the iPad 3/4. Colors were washed out, it was incredibly dim, lacked contrast, etc. The really slow GPU thing I can't really attest to, although benchmarks indicate it's not *horribly* slow, especially for something that came out last year. Yes, it's slower than the iPad 4. Basically, anything released within ~6 months of an iPad historically can't match the GPU power. Comparing it to the Android space, it was relatively quick last year. Not so much now, though.

    I do agree with you, though. Proof: when my N10 was stolen, I replaced it with an iPad 4.
    Reply
  • Midwayman - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Anything from 2012 with a full HD screen or higher running Android was underspec'd anyways. They hadn't upped the hardware to deal with the demands of the higher res screens yet. 2013 is looking to be a different matter. Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    After owning and using the N10 at launch last year, I can say that I never felt that the GPU held it back in the OS. The transitions were all very smooth throughout the OS. Some apps behaved weirdly, but that was because they rendered to a fixed size, which looks comical on a tablet with a pixel density that high. There were plenty of other things that were off about the N10, though. Supposedly ASUS got the nod for this year's Nexus 10, so I'm looking forward to their take on it. Reply
  • jl0329 - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    Go home, time to change your diaper you little brat. Reply
  • Krysto - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I agree they should move to 8" next year, or at least 7.7", and no more than a width of five inches, because then it becomes too wide (the iPad Mini is too wide for one-hand use).

    But yeah I'd prefer it was a bit bigger to justify getting one when you already have a big smartphone.
    Reply
  • sherlockwing - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Don't know about you, but I bought a N7 2013 when I already have a GS4(5") and the Media viewing expewrience on the Nexus 7 is substantially better. The N7's display(22.02 in^2) is twice as large as GS4's(10.68 in^2), and 85% more space when viewing 16:9 content( 19.8 vs 10.68). I find it perfectly justifiable to buy even if I have a GS4.

    Now if your defination for "big smartphone" is a Note then I see your point. It won't take too much effort to get a 7.5" screen on N7 if the bezel is reduced to Ipad Mini level. The screen/front area ratio of N7 is only 62%, Ipad mini's is 71.8%.
    Reply
  • CSMR - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    "802.11ac is probably the only thing missing from this otherwise awesome platform"

    802.11ac will take years to start being used, and decades before it makes earlier wifi standards obsolete. In the life of a current device, there will be no occasions when 802.11ac will be available and providing internet but other wifi standards are not.

    Lack of cellular connectivity on the other hand results in lack of internet access in most locations, and is a major omission.
    Reply
  • solipsism - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    If you're defining it as not being used anywhere by anyone in favour of a new standard, then I guess I agree it will take decades. But by that notion there are people still using floppy disks.

    If you wish to be less draconian with your definition then your decades claim doesn't hold water. Including 802.11b in a device that supports 802.11g/n as a back up that is inexpensive for the component vendor to include doesn't mean it's being utilized extensively.

    Also note is was only a decade between the 802.11b and n standards and 802.11n took off faster (for various reasons) than 802.11b so I can't see how it will be at least 2x longer before it gains a foothold, especially considering the focus society has for WiFi and excellent job the committee did in ratifying ac compared to n.

    Finally, "there will be no occasions when 802.11ac will be available" and "802.11ac will take years to start being used" are just outright wrong. I use 802.11ac every single day. It's available! You can buy routers and devices that use this standard and they aren't priced at levels that make it unreasonable to obtain.
    Reply
  • CSMR - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I was not saying it will take decades for people to start using 802.11ac. What will take decades is for them to switch off 802.11g and 802.11n. You may use 802.11ac now and good for you, but you can still get an internet connection with 802.11g/n. The main advertised advantage of 802.11ac is speed, but it will at least 10 years until typical internet connections saturate an 802.11g link let alone 802.11n.

    I am not against putting 802.11ac in devices as soon as it becomes a standard integrated part of modern chipsets, but the point is always-on internet is important, and if you do not have cellular connectivity then you will lack internet whenever you are outside your wifi network.
    Reply
  • solipsism - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    1) I use 802.11ac but I haven't turned off g or n, just as I didn't turn off g or b when I used n. By your measure we're still decades away from using 802.11g.

    2) WAN speeds have nothing to do with LAN speeds. If you understood how WiFi works you'd not male a simple 1:1 comparison.

    3) Now you're moving it to a discussion about cellular? These are not mutually exclusive technologies.
    Reply
  • joos2000 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    In regards to point 2:

    Most wifi routers are typically hooked to the Internet through xDSL or cable. Typically, when you're surfing or streaming content, it is the dsl/cable connection that is the limiting factor in terms of speed, regardless of what type of wifi you are using. I think that was fairly obvious from the previous guy's post.

    However, if you are streaming data from your private server on your gigabit LAN, well, then you may well notice some difference in speed, however, my n-based home wifi can easily stream 1080p content without stuttering, so the new ac standard doesn't feel quite as necessary an upgrade compared from the g->n upgrade I did a while back.

    Cheers, /J
    Reply
  • solipsism - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    You either deliberately ignored what I stated or didn't understand it. Your theoretical maximum performance per your LAN or WAN is irrelevant when it comes to the full picture of performance. If you bought an 802.11n router that doesn't mean you get 450 or 600Mbps from that router. Let's say it says 450Mbps on the box and your PC also supports those max data rates, does that mean you're getting 450Mbps right now? Of course not! That's an optimal theoretical level. The farther away you are and/or the more interference affecting Tx or Rx the worse the throughput will be. But for this let's say you are right next to it, and your homes is a Faraday cage. What can you determine in terms of total LAN performance? Nothing should be your answer at this point because you have no data on how many other devices are also using that same WiFi network. For the lack of a better term WiFi works much like the old token ring networks which mean that when the router is Tx or Rx from another device it's not listening to you. This happens quickly but each active device slows down your maximum throughput. This is why, even for a LAN having additional spatial streams, antennas, and higher throughput can affect overall network performance to and from the internet. Reply
  • joos2000 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm just saying that the current tech works well for me (and presumably a lot of people) and that there is no subjective need to fill.

    If the new standard has improved your experience, since you seem to have a lot of devices on your Wifi, then obviously this generation serves a purpose for you straight away. However, it doesn't for me, for all the reasons you mentioned. And I think that's all the original poster wanted to say really and I agree with him.
    Reply
  • whyso - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I think what he means and what you aren't getting is that the supplied internet to your house has trouble saturating a 802.11n connection let alone an ac connection. For me with my 5 mbps internet 802.11ac does squat. Reply
  • solipsism - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    @ whyso,

    Of course it doesn't, but that doesn't mean WiFi can help utilize your LAN connection. I have about a few dozen devices on my network with about 10 people connected between wired LAN, main WiFi, and guest WiFi on a single access router so having faster WiFi is quite beneficial to optimizing the WAN connection.
    Reply
  • darwinosx - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Completely wrong. Reply
  • jl0329 - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    Dumb shit. Reply
  • ShieTar - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    "Lack of cellular connectivity on the other hand results in lack of internet access in most locations, and is a major omission."

    How many people do actually own a second SIM for their tablet instead of just using their phone as a hotspot?
    Reply
  • CSMR - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    People may do this but it should be obvious how terrible this solution is. It requires user intervention, requires the user to carry around a second device and a cable, and it does not give always-on internet but just occasional internet. If this were a good solution you would not need wifi on the tablet either, you could just attach your phone. Reply
  • solipsism - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    1) I'd rather take 30 seconds to enable a hotspot on my smartphone for the occasional use then pay excessive fees every month paying for a service I will rarely ever use, not to mention the HW and licensing costs associated for cellular connectivity.

    2) A cable? Have you ever seen an iPhone connected to an iPad to tether it? It's done via BT or WiFi. Now what happens if you have a half dozen devices using your 42Mbps cellular connection on your phone as a hotspot? Do you think they all get a constant 54Mbps connection with 802.11g? If so, you still don't WiFi works.
    Reply
  • ShieTar - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    There no cable, it is done via WiFi. And yes it "requires" me to carry my phone around, but so far I have not been in a situation where I left home with the tablet but without the phone.

    And its not like I only use this solution for the tablet, I also use the phone as mobile hotspot for my Kindle and my Laptop. And when I am on a business-travel to a foreign country with a few colleagues (which happens often enough if you work for a European company), we usually only get a single prepaid card, let one phone use it to connect to the net, and act as the mobile hotspot for everybody else.
    Reply
  • max1001 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    It takes 2 secs to turn on hotspot on my nexus 4. Just unlock the phone and tap on the hotspot widget and you are done. The tablet automatically connects to it within 5-10 secs. Reply
  • akdj - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Yep...Easy Peezy! Then, about 54 minutes later, your Nex 4's battery life is history. It's ubiquitous. Doesn't matter which OS or phone you're tethering to...tethering EATS battery life. Anand often shows battery life while tethering. It's often less than half that of actually using the phone itself to surf, check email or update your Facebook status. If both devices decide to sleep....bummer! Time to turn em both back on, reconnect and you're back up n running. Not sure what other carriers charge, but AT&T is $10 a month to add to your bucket data plan. IMHO, that up front hardware charge is a bargain when it comes down to connectivity and efficiency. I don't think I'm alone in this thought process and the last wifi only tablet I bought, I returned and 'upgraded' to the LTE version. The extra CNote was quickly forgotten Reply
  • ESC2000 - Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - link

    Tethering stays on for me even if the devices go into sleep mode. I actually need to be careful to ensure that I remember to turn tethering off because otherwise it'd just stay on allowing freeloaders to use it. I have unlimited data but still...

    Also I've never noticed decreased battery from tethering. I haven't paid close attention but my note II's battery has never died before the end of the day whether I tethered or not, so I'm not too worried about tethering's impact on my battery.... esp since I can easily change the battery out-_-
    Reply
  • joos2000 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I have. I got a basic "Wireless Internet" plan for my slate. It gives me more gigabytes per month than my "high usage phone plan" did. So, I've now been able to step down to a cheaper cellular plan for my phone. My cost has been status quo, but my gigabytes per month while on the go has increased.

    I'm in Australia though, I'm unsure how that compares to in the states.
    Reply
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    If you're trying to save money in the US you go with Sprint/Tmo or one of the smaller prepaid/regional carriers, and in those cases I think it's usually cheaper to pay for one of the high GB phone plans (all unlimited in Sprint's case, also available for Tmo) and run a hotspot than to go to an AT&T/VZW plan and pay extra for a tablet. I don't know if Tmo even offers a data only plan... It's all kinda backwards here, but we generally get pretty good coverage (and no roaming) across a huge swath of a continent, which people totally take for granted. Reply
  • max1001 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    .........
    They have an LTE version coming out very soon so how is that a major omission?
    Reply
  • Thomaspin - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I wrote a four part review based on my exepriences (my primary focus is that of a photographer and movie buff) from the perspective of someone who has never used Android before, so apologies for the relatively naïve Android content, which reflects my learning curve.

    My interest was in using the N7 with my existing iCloud data and so successful was the experience, and so stellar the performance of the N7, that I just sold my iPad Mini and bought a second N7 for my son.

    I realize that a fairer comparison will be with the 2013 iPad, but the N7 made it unrealistic to wait, given the iCloud functionality.

    My link, below, is not commercially motivated. My site carries no advertising and has no click-thorugh payment sources. Stated differently, I make exactly $zero from it. Nor do I try to compare with a dozen other tablets as, until now, my tablet world has been iPad only (iPad 1, iPad 3 and iPad Mini), and there's no way I am in competition with AT, which is my definitive source for test data.

    Here it is: http://pindelski.org/Photography/2013/08/06/nexus-...

    I hope it is of interest.

    I am a long time AT reader, first time commentator.
    Reply
  • max1001 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    If you want to be taken seriously. Keep the whole company x is evil bit out of the review. You can write the best review in the world and readers will stop taking you seriously when you start ranting. Reply
  • bubblesmoney - Wednesday, September 04, 2013 - link

    Learn a bit more about android, quite a bit of what is state is inaccurate. Read all the parts, wanted to leave a comment on the blog but wasnt interested in leaving my email address on your website so didnt bother commenting there. Some simple things you need to know, get rid of the 'anti virus' you dont need it, you can read USB OTG hard drives, wifi drives, dvd players, cameras, wifi camera apps, dslr controller apps, miracast for wireless mirroring (does not need wifi for mirroring, stop comparing to airplay where you need a wifi signal, you dont need an app like you state in the article), nexus media importer can read NTFS hard drives, you can power hard drives with the nexus 7. So read up a bit more about android devices before writing a review as there is so much that is incorrect in the article (all parts) on your website. If you want to see wireless screen mirroring via miracast without using 'apps' or using hard drives etc then just search youtube for such videos or see my youtube channel veryannoyingname where i have uploaded hard drive being powered and read, dvd drive usb otg, etc you can also see some miracast videos so check it out if interested. See the other uploads and numerous playlists to use your android device better. Cheers. Reply
  • jb14 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Hi Anand thanks for the great review as always.
    I have a quick question for anyone here - i'm abit puzzled by the first two graphs on page one, ie the CalMAN display white point & Greyscale graphs. Here the Nexus 7 (2013) seems significantly worse than the original Nexus but there is no mention of this, however when the black levels are slightly worse on the new nexus in comparison this is picked up and explained. Am I missing something here or was the original nexus screen really that good in comparison, or do those two graphs have the nexus results the wrong way round so to speak? Are the differences too small to warrant highlighting? Thanks
    Reply
  • darwinosx - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Not a word about the fact that these are sold at cost.
    I have bought three of these as gifts but a retina iPad Mini will be a much better device when it arrives next month. 35 to 40% more screen real estate and real tablet apps instead of upsized apps plus three choices of memory sizes and LTE. This screen is too small for me though. Also the buttons are terrible.
    Reply
  • sherlockwing - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    For 16:9 content, a 7.9" 4:3 screen only give you 13% more space. In exchange the Mini is almost an inch wider than N7 2013 while having much less bezel, not to mention Mini2 will end up being much more expensive than N7 2013 just like how N7 2012 vastly under priced the original mini. Reply
  • madmilk - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I don't understand why people criticize the Nexus 4 and Nexus 7 for being sold nearly at cost. Are you really so eager to help Google, Apple, etc. make money? I'd prefer to keep it in my own pocket. Reply
  • BMNify - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    If subsidised hardware kill off the hardware manufacturer's then you will be left with a monopoly that is Google who can charge you more later and make money on Ad's too like they do now. This is the reason why selling at-cost or dumping is not desirable. Reply
  • sherlockwing - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    The sold at cost N7 is competing with the sold below cost Kindle Fire. The console market have the sold below cost Xbox competing with the sold below cost Playstation. Your logic doesn't work out in practice. Reply
  • BMNify - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I have covered Amazon strategy in the below comments and console market is the perfect example of what will happen if all OS manufacturer's start dumping their hardware in the market. And console market is a much much smaller market where even 2-3 companies are enough but smartphones, tablets and laptops market is a very huge which needs healthy competition and many manufacturers to support all price points, device differentiation and quality. Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    And? What's your point? How is it a negative that these are sold nearer to cost than Apple's 40%+ margin? Reply
  • Mivo - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    End customers don't care if a device is sold at cost. I don't consider a low price a negative. The retina iPad mini won't be out next month, which is one of the main reasons why I now pre-ordered a N7 (hitting German shelves next week). I waited long enough. Reply
  • ESC2000 - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    I agree with everyone who is perplexed that you object to paying less. Also remember though that Asus manufactured these tablets and they certainly aren't working for no profit. I think I read somewhere that Asus gets $4 per nexus 7.... certainly not the $150 or whatever that Apple makes on each mini (not to mention the extra $100 for each storage upgrade) but it adds up.

    Of course they may be selling at or below cost and Google might just be paying Asus. Hopefully we won't all end up working as slaves to Google... -written from my happily-obtained at cost nexus 7 2013
    Reply
  • jl0329 - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    You are wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin... Reply
  • Arbie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link


    Well, I may have to get used to it, but I don't want to. Hence the comment. And in what way does SD "suck"? Micro and standard SD work perfectly for me in about eight different devices, and have done so for years.

    Wait - I just figured it out: you're putting the chip in backwards. Google for some help with that.
    Reply
  • Arbie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    You simply prove my point. Without a micro/SD slot you have to spend hours grinding your videos down just to fit the hardware AND keep a computer available (!!) to reload your tablet memory. That whole scenario is so infinitely more difficult than just snapping tiny chips in and out that it doesn't even parse. People - we should be bitching more about this, or we *will* have to get used to no SD. Reply
  • Arbie - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Yeah, at about 1000x the size, weight, hassle, and fragility of a microSD card, it's not as elegant... That's exactly why we need micro/SD. Reply
  • BMNify - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Anand will you please point out that Nexus devices are sold at-cost to the consumers, Google subsidised prices can't be compared with the other hardware manufacturers. Reply
  • sherlockwing - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    I guess Amazon doesn't count as "other hardware manufactuers" with their Kindle Fire Tablets? Reply
  • BMNify - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Nope, Amazon doesn't count, now they can easily exit the market too if they want as their objective of cheap tablets as their delivery vehicle is achieved as mentioned by Brian Klug in one of the podcasts but they will still stay in the market so that they are not totally dependent on other ecosystems. Reply
  • sherlockwing - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    If "cheap tablets as content delivery vehicle" is the Amazon model, it is the same as the Google model (use N7 to expand Android App user base, especially those that use Google Apps). If you declare "Amazon doesn't count" then Google doesn't count either by the same logic of yours. Reply
  • akdj - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    'especially those that use Google Apps'. That's the nail on the head. Google doesn't care about the 'Play Store"...in the sense of it being a money maker. Google is first and foremost an advertising company. The biggest in the world. The 'google apps' are exactly and precisely why they're selling these and their phones @ cost. It's also the same reason they release excellent iOS apps. For Google, your info...that's their gold mine. Nothing more, nothing less. Apple on the other hand IS a hardware manufacturer. Just so happens the App Store is extremely lucrative and would qualify as a Fortune 500 company on its own. As is iTunes. They make real, hard cash for those endeavors.
    Two completely different philosophies and goals
    Amazon on the other hand...again, offering the Kindle @ cost allows for a quick and easy portal to purchase everything from diapers and peanut butter to the latest Stephen King novel or Tom Petty's new album. They're selling you a shopping bag that'll fit anything from the store (and your credit card) you'd like to buy
    Just so happens...other vendors are now involving themselves attempting to compete with these two (3) different ways of thinking and running Android with their OEMs skin. Competition is good. These tablets in their current, usable and consumer available format have only been around for three years! As a 42 year old enjoyer of all things tech related, I find it a very exciting time to be involved with and 'into' technology. It's amazing what's happened in only 36 months....we've got more software available at our fingertips (with smartphones included) than any other time in history. 800,000+ apps on each platform....obviously with some parity. But just five years ago a decent game on a handheld gaming device was $59 on release! When I was a kid...my Mattell handheld football game cost my folks a good $30 bill for Christmas!
    It's funny how 'religious' these OS debates have become. I own both Android and iOS devices....Work in Windows and Mac PCs...and I'm excited for everyone's press conference. How most of us that frequent Anand's site don't feel the same is beyond me. I'm just thankful the staff here is as passionate AND as objective as any human could ever be when it comes to technology review.
    And to think....you don't pay a dime, most of you...to come enjoy their articles and in depth reviews anytime you choose???
    Why such animosity? And why complain or argue? Debate is good...but so many of these tangent conversations seem to just 'not get it'. Seems ignorance has run rampant since the invention of the 'smart phone'....turned all of us into 'dumb people'
    Just my cent and a half (I bought the new Nex7 myself...don't have a full two cents, I'm saving for the new 'mini' this fall;))
    Reply
  • JDG1980 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    This is Anandtech, not the Wall Street Journal. Why are the business strategies of these companies relevant to who provides the best device at the best price? Why should consumers care who is subsidizing what? Reply
  • BMNify - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Copy pasting from my above comment as you didn't go through it: If subsidised hardware kill off the hardware manufacturer's then you will be left with a monopoly that is Google who can charge you more later and make money on Ad's too like they do now. This is the reason why selling at-cost or dumping is not desirable. Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Thursday, August 22, 2013 - link

    Interesting perspective. I hadn't heard a well-reasoned argument against selling at or near cost before now. Also, do you have a source to back up the claim that ASUS is making a significantly smaller margin on the N7 than they are on their other devices? Their MemoPad HD 7 is a 2012 N7 clone that's $150, so if the 2013 N7 is at cost, that has to be as well. And that's not being subsidized by Google, so if it were really at cost without some hypothetical Google subsidy, why would ASUS bother designing and selling it? Reply
  • psyside1 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Thanks alot Anand, for listening us, and put the 16 vs 32GB version in your review, now i know i want the 32GB version! fanstastic review. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I know it's a great thing to add in the review, but I would frankly would have preferred not to know! As I bought the 16 GB model, hehe. Doubt it has a big impact on real world use though. Reply
  • akdj - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Google most likely pays ASUS to make the tablet....they pay the price of the BOM & labor directly to ASUS. That's how they are making their money. Google is essentially giving the tablet away for you, and everything that IS you. Your friends. Your contacts. Your email. Your documents and music and movies....and, what they call the 'data mine'. They sell that info to third party companies and probably double their original $200 investment to ASUS Reply
  • smartypnt4 - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    According to what evidence? It's widely known that Apple takes a very large margin on their products, which the Mini being the lowest margin (~40% if I remember correctly). There has been no indication of what the Nexus 7 actually costs to build. My point is that ASUS is selling their own tablets without Google at prices that make me think that the Nexus 7 isn't actually being sold at or under cost. I'm thinking it's probably relatively low-margin compared to the iOS devices, but everything in technology is low margin compared to iOS stuff (except Intel processors, that is).

    And yes, Google uses your information to target ads at you. That's not really news to anyone, and anyone buying into Android better know and be OK with that, or just not care.
    Reply
  • amdwilliam1985 - Monday, August 26, 2013 - link

    Thanks for the insight info about Google spying on us. Let's run the other way, Apple/M$ are so great and never touch our private sensitive data. Our data sitting in icloud/skydrive are so magical that nothing comes and tint it. Oh just how I love facebook is doing everything they can to make us feeling safer/happier about posting everything onto it. man oh man, the 21st century is all about Google mining your/our data and every other companies protecting you/us ;) /s

    Sarcastic off, man grow up, crying about Google spying on you, lol. The way I see it is that if they're going to data mine us one way or the other, why not benefit from it? Why pay for your device twice? Once in privacy and once in physical dollar. I'm going with the one that I think is the least evil of them all, Google. Yes, I've used apple products before, didn't like how restricted iphone/ipad are. Didn't like how macbook air can't install the programs that are only running in windows, sigh...
    Reply
  • Mivo - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    You should probably post some sources for your claims. That aside, what is and is not desireable is a matter of perspective. I'd wager that most end customers are fine with ads or a walled garden, if that substantially lowers the price of a device. Just look at Amazon and their customers. (Or look at Apple and their customers who happily pay premium prices in spite of the walled garden.) Reply
  • Ananke - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Example: Asus buys from Foxconn at $220, and sells for $229. If it costs Foxconn 29.99 to manufacture and sell to Asus, is it considered "sold almost at cost" to end users by your logic? Reply
  • eio - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    After playing with the new Nexus 7, I seriously think that equip the same 7" screen with a ultra-thin border (like Optimus G2) would be the ultimate form factor of smartphones. It won't be as comfortable to carry as a 5" but the enlarged screen size are much more beneficial for a portable computing device, which what smartphones are nowadays (imo they are not "phone" anymore, everyone is looking instead of talking to them). I can carry a 7" device in my back pocket without much problem, daily. Reply
  • meloz - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I so wish this tablet had a 9-inch screen. Then it would be perfect for me. 7-inch tablets do not work for me because of text size; you cannot hold them down (at lap level when sitting in chair) with the the wrists resting on legs. You always have to raise them up like a smartphone to chest height, and that gets tiring if you are sat and reading a long document/file.

    I wish Asus and Google would make a 9 inch variant of this device. :(
    Reply
  • cjs150 - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Do what I did. Get a Nook HD+ and root it back to standard android. Although I would also strongly recommend getting a matt screen cover because of the reflections.

    Works really well as an e-book reader
    Reply
  • ShieTar - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I just imported myself a Cube U30GT. Its a 10", but surprisingly enough they managed to keep it to 320g, so its as comfortable to hold as most 7" tablets. I can definitely hold it comfortably with one hand while operating the screen with the other one. Reply
  • aniym - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Since when did 659g become 320g? Seriously, this spamming of Chinese tablets is getting tiresome? Do you really think that readers of Anandtech, of all sites, are going to fall for your BS? Reply
  • meloz - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    ShieTar, does your "Cube U30GT" (never head of it before, strange) posses identical specs and performance as the Nexus 7?

    Somehow I doubt it. I am not interested in disposable Chinese junk.
    Reply
  • ShieTar - Monday, August 26, 2013 - link

    Nope, it does most certainly not have identical specs and performances. The CPU is admittedly on the slow side, and the hardware is the kind of plastic you expect from a 200$ tablet. I did not try to tell you that it is better in every aspect then the Nexus 7, I merely expected that your reason for wanting a 9" when there is already a ton of 10" devices would be weight, and I offered a comment on that topic. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Yeah, it'S 670 g. Way more than 320. Also, I'd stay for away from cheap Chinese tablets for now. Tablets are computers. So many things can go wrong, I have to really trust the company I'm buying this from. I'm sure China (and hey, I don't consider Taiwan part of China) will get there soon and produce high quality tablets, but we're not there yet. Anyway all Android tablets are crap except the Nexus line anyway. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    To each his own. I feel 7 inch is the best size for me. I find even the iPad Mini too big to carry around a lot. The iPad 4 and the Nexus 10 are just way too big for that. They're more couch tablets then follow you everywhere tablets. I don't even realize I'm carrying around my new Nexus 7 in my man purse (it's European!) because it's so light and small. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    ''than''. Sorry. Reply
  • tailwhip - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Great review, the only error is you say the screen has 1200 lines but it actually has 1080. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    It's actually right. There are 1200 lines. Space for the virtual buttons. Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    It's a 16:10 display, 1920x1200. I'm glad too, cause 16:9 starts to get uncomfortably narrow in portrait (even at 10", try some of the Win 8 tablets). Reply
  • Da W - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    For that mather i'll take a USB 3.0 port with USB keys. Reply
  • YuLeven - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Concerning the iOS x Android comparision, it really puzzles me the fact that people always assume that iOS is 'easy and great for ordinary people' and Android is for geeks.

    Whether that may be true for many cases, i'd like to say that's not mine. I'm an absolutely ordinary guy. I work as a Japanese instructor and my interest in gadgets does't stretch anywhere near to custom ROM's, high-end gaming or that sort of thing.

    Having owned an iPad mini and dumped it later for a Galaxy Note II, I must say that the Android ecosystem actually was by far more compelling to my work.

    PDF experience was pretty much the same in both systems, but iOS's dictionaries apps pales in comparision to those on Android in terms of accuracy and usability. Apps focused on teach the language, as the one's used for flashcards and that sort of thing, followed the same experience. Browsing seemed pretty much the same as I care the most about what it's being displayed rather them scrolling like a freak to see which one is the smoothest. And last but not least, beign forced to convert my video files used in lessons with iTunes whas annoying as it can be. Other features dubbed as gimmick as how Android handle its multi-tasking actually helps me a lot.

    Of course I used my tablet/phablet outside the classes and never felt cramped in both systems, though.Yet again watching videos on an Apple device was annoying for being forced to spend hours converting my files.

    That's however just my opinion. I can bet that there are not that many Japanese teachers arround buying tablets, I just wanted to say that this argument of 'more optimized APPs' and 'better for ordinary people' it's not always true. Specially on the APP side. People are yet to point me an APP that is lacking on Android for my uses, but there where a few cases on iOS.

    And i'd like to point too that all this smoothness thing sound just like bollocks for me. Android seems to be fast enough as I won't die for a stutter or other. Rather i'm please with it as it suits me better than iOS.
    Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Your reading an Anandtech review and know what a ROM is. Your way above the average tech user. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Good God, ''You're''. Reply
  • amdwilliam1985 - Monday, August 26, 2013 - link

    I know, I felt the same thing, Android are for the geeks, iOS and touchwiz are for the norm. All my friends running Android devices are using varies Galaxy devices. My girlfriend dumped her iphone 4s and went with SGS4 because touchwiz was the easier for her to use.
    touchwiz > iOS > Android
    lol
    Reply
  • caleblloyd - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    When Anand says "order of magnitude" (which he says a lot), does he mean base-2 or base-10? Reply
  • Aaimnr - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    When Anand puts some numbers in his reviews (which he does a lot), does he use base-2 or base-10? Reply
  • vailr - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Won't Amazon be updating their Kindle Fire lineup pretty soon? Although not ideal: the 8.9" Kindle Fire could be improved by addition of an SD card slot, and an easier option of rooting and installing the stock Android 4.3 O.S. (not too likely, I'd guess). Reply
  • Impulses - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Not too likely at all, on either count. Reply
  • Conficio - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    Anand, have you ever run comparison tests between 200, 300, 400, 500 nits display? It would be nice to get an idea as to what battery life one can expect if the display is used outdoor, where you need the brighter display. Just one or two tablets/phones would be fine to get an idea. The Nexus 7 '13 seems to be a good candidate with its high max brightness. Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    You can check out Engadget's review for something similar to this. They use brightness fixed at at 65 % (if I remember correctly) which is much higher than 200 nits on the new Nexus 7. If you have to use one test, Anandtech definitely has the best one, but Engadget's one does give you an idea of the impact of cranking up the brightness on the N7. Bottom line, battery life does take a hit, but it's still ok. Reply
  • iamkyle - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I don't see how this product can be called "the best" especially when Google/Asus has essentially railroaded purchasers of the 2012 Nexus 7. "Oh hey, I know we sold you this tablet, but check this one out! It's the same, but better!".

    Customer says "then why did you sell me this one in the first place?"

    This endless praise of anything with a Google name on it reeks of bias.
    Reply
  • turkeystyle - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    For real! Nissan did the same thing to me when I bought an Altima a couple of years back. The next year's model was better but for the same price! And good god, my Galaxy S3 is barely a year old and what does Samsung do? Release the S4! The nerve! And don't even get me started on Nvdia and AMD and how they keep making better graphics cards every year.

    My buddy did the smart thing and bought an iPhone 5 last year. He's got at least another year before Apple releases an upgrade. So lucky to have the latest and greatest technology for that long!

    But yeah, Google is definitely the worst. They just try to hide it by giving away web services.
    Reply
  • meloz - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    >Customer says "then why did you sell me this one in the first place?"

    While we wonder why you _bought_ it in the first place.

    Thinly disguised Appletroll, you must do a better job.
    Reply
  • ASEdouardD - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    You can't be for real. They didn't offer this product last year because available components and the prices of those components change every year. Prices go down, technology gets better. Google/Asus couldn't have offered a tablet like this at this price last year. Just plain impossible. Reply
  • Davidjan - Friday, August 23, 2013 - link

    I had Nexus 7 I. I will buy Nexus 7 II. It is really convenient to extend its storage with : http://goo.gl/U6IyY Reply
  • Impulses - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    I ordered two of those... Not sure how much I'll really use it tho, might keep one on my keychain along with my regular USB micro reader and see how often I have the opportunity to use it, but for traveling and transferring loads of content from a PC (i.e. movies) I'd rather use a regular USB OTG adapter and a much faster USB 3.0 drive... It's going into my travel bag until I'm sitting down on a plane/train/hotel either way. Reply
  • iampivot - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Is the GSM modem on the 4G / LTE version locked down, so that you cannot make calls nor send SMS messages, like the original nexus 7? Reply
  • Shukla - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Is it me or is this about 1 year behind iPad? So google puts out an iPad 4 competitor 1 year later??

    I'm no apple junkie but why is it that each year apple resets the bar and everyone spends the year catching up but not passing in everyway?

    1. No individual app privacy controls
    2. Longer battery life than iPad/iPhone (by wide margin).

    I need a job with google marketing- they suck.
    Reply
  • GTBandit22 - Saturday, August 24, 2013 - link

    Well considering this is a 7 inch tablet, and half the cost of the entry level iPad, I would say you're making a bad comparison.
    I would say that Apple is behind in the small form factor race. 6 months behind.
    Reply
  • akdj - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Possibly because the released (Apple) their tablet nine months ago? It'll never end. They're working six months apart. With each company's current release, it'll 'best' the six month old competitors. Technology, especially low power SOC and GPU designs are developing at a rapid pace. Give it a couple months and we'll see the same thing happen with Apple's new lineup. In fact, the iPad 4 is still holding up...as is the iPhone 5 to the current crop of Android releases (other than extreme screen sizes). I like what Google is now doing with their Nexus series. Like Apple, they're designing (or helping design) the hardware and optimizing their software to work efficiently together. Super smart decision without the carrier and OEM skins we've had to live with until these new Nexus tablets have released. Smart. Idea. Reply
  • lightsout565 - Sunday, August 25, 2013 - link

    Can someone provide me a link with a more detailed outline of how the WiFi web browsing test is conducted? Thanks! Reply
  • mikeyfouc - Monday, August 26, 2013 - link

    Can this plug into a VGA overhead projector to mirror the screen? I'd really like to get a tablet that allows me to show Powerpoint presentations on a VGA projector. I've seen AT's review of SlimPort, but it only has a video of the mirroring on a widescreen HD TV via HDMI. Also, I've searched all over the web: can Android show powerpoint presentations in slideshow mode (as you'd see on a PC)? Reply
  • Shopov - Tuesday, August 27, 2013 - link

    Excelent review! My question-Nexus 7 (2012) does not support WiFi Ad Hoc (ibss). This is boring since its only WiFi version (no LTE) cannot receive WiFi from tethered smartphone (mine is Nokia C-7). What about the WiFi of the new Nexus 2013? If the answer is positive this would be a big advantage. I should mention that several Android 4 tablets receive WiFi Ad Hoc (ibss). Reply
  • Nexus 7 2013 - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    For anyone considering this device, please check out the forum on Google :
    https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/mob...

    Majority are as reviewed, but a small, yet growing number are effected by software/hardware issues that, after a month's time, are yet to be concretely dealt with.
    Buy only from a vendor having a good solid return/exchange /refund policy.
    Reply
  • Hrel - Thursday, August 29, 2013 - link

    No 802.11ac?! Lame.

    "The beauty of not having to double the original Nexus 7's resolution but instead settling on an in-between option like 1920 x 1200 is that Google could get away with a performance mainstream SoC instead of something ridiculously high-end."' ... what? That's a ridiculously high resolution, Apple is stupid for thinking a resolution that high is useful.

    I'd like to see them go 16:9, make the device 8" and give it a 1920x1080 display resolution. Perhaps next year, with 802.11ac.

    With that said, I can't see myself even entertaining the idea of actually buying a tablet unless it's gaming focused like the Nvidia... thingy...I forget the name.

    This is how I see it, tablets are secondary for web browsing in the first place, anyone in their right mind prefers using a laptop. Which, let's face it, anyone who can afford a tablet already has. So, WHY would someone buy a device where the primary focus is web browsing? Give me a tablet that's focused on mobile gaming (PSP/gameboy style) that also has all the functionality of one of these tablets, web browsing. I think Nvidia is on the right track, streaming desktop games so you can lie in bed and play without having a laptop on your chest and your wrists angled awkwardly. Play mobile games when away from home/on a plane/cab. Also allows you to read ebooks and listen to audio books AND check facebook/reddit/anandtech/twitter whatever, newegg and amazon and such.

    I think if Nvidia just keeps doing what they're doing they're next gen "tablet" could be the perfect device. The only recommendation I'd make is to choose to focus on making it as good a mobile reader as an IPS display can be, it won't ever be as good as a kindle with that Eink display, but if it's close enough, and they can produce numbers to show no meaningful eye strain then I'm sold. They've gotta compete with Razer Edge, or whatever, too.
    Reply
  • justacousin - Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - link

    So what is going to be Nexus devices in improving their device? Reply
  • justacousin - Tuesday, September 03, 2013 - link

    Sorry, what I meant to ask was: So what is going to be Nexus' next steps to improving their device? Reply
  • harrydevlin - Monday, September 16, 2013 - link

    One big difference that is often overlooked when comparing tablets is the presence or absence of a GPS. The Nexus tablets all have a GPS receiver, even in the Wi-Fi only versions. iPads do not have a GPS receiver in the Wi-Fi only versions.

    Some of the most compelling tablet apps require a GPS receiver. For example, using a tablet as a GPS mapping device, with stored maps, requires a GPS.
    Reply
  • shermanx - Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - link

    the battery doesn't seem right for mine. I guess either I got a defective unit or this review did it with a "tablet sheet battery". I get maybe half of what's claimed here and the battery seems to drain very fast even when I don't use the tablet (battery dies in 2-3 days if I leave it idle). Reply
  • sireangelus - Saturday, October 05, 2013 - link

    Would you ming having an article on the nexus 7 2012 slow charging issue ??? it's frustrating. Maybe if you make a fuss something will be done about it- like warranty extension of something. Reply
  • SOORAJ - Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - link

    when it will be launched in India? and what will be the price? Reply
  • lookit77 - Saturday, October 12, 2013 - link

    How about a review of the LTE version of the Nexus 7 or an update to this review? Reply
  • Eugene88 - Saturday, October 26, 2013 - link

    I'm very curious about battery change. i.e. frequent usage of tablet drained battery, so it doesn't hold even for an hour. Is it possible to change battery? Haven't found any openings on tablet.

    Very well written article.
    Reply
  • WillyJ - Wednesday, November 06, 2013 - link

    Sadly, my daughter has shattered her display. Does anyone know a reliable source for replacement display assemblies? Reply
  • ESC2000 - Thursday, January 02, 2014 - link

    You know it's actually surprising to me how the nexus 7 blew the original iPad mini out of the water in every test except for one. Granted the original mini was a three months from the end of its life cycle. Apple is still selling it, though, for a super inflated price of $300, which makes it somewhat in the nexus 7's price range. The reins mini at $400 may surpass the nexus 7 but is not a good value with its low functionality:price ratio.

    I just remember the constant arguments with apple fans claiming the original mini was better than the nexus 7 2013, and I think the lopsided nature of these numbers shows that objectively it was not better (although in individual cases there may be some reason to purchase it over the nexus 7).
    Reply
  • mittoo - Friday, January 10, 2014 - link

    Nice review and a lot of insight on screen quality.

    I have on complaint though. Why is iPhone 5 included in the pixel per inch list? What, you don't like Google products on top? After praising the device so much you could let it have the top spot in that. Why randomly add a phone? And it is not like the iPhone 5 has the highest ppi either.
    Reply
  • bobcisco - Wednesday, January 29, 2014 - link

    purchased a unit in Dec 12, another in Dec 13 as gifts. Regretting that second purchase now. The first one died exactly a month out of 1 year warranty. Estimate is $200 to get this stupid $245 tablet repaired. I bought 15 Ipads 3 years ago for our employees - sure they cost more, but all of them are still working great... save your money, but something that'll work for longer than a year. Reply
  • Oberkanone - Tuesday, April 29, 2014 - link

    RE alidoors

    100% Spam, 0% Credibility, 100% Troll
    Reply

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