HTPC - TV Tuner Reviews
by Jarred Walton on December 7, 2005 12:05 AM EST- Posted in
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More DVICO Fusion5 Gold
Most of you are probably after a single piece of information: how does the Fusion5 fare in actual use? For the most part, the Fusion5 works as expected. Channel setup/acclimation is painful, but once you've found your favorite stations and/or become used to the new channel locations, everything works quite well. We had a ton of comments about difficulties with using the FusionHDTV software when we were using version 3.11, but we're glad that we can forget about most of the serious problems and simply recommend users upgrade to the latest 3.19.05 release (or perhaps even a newer version). However, there are still a few issues that remain that make this a less-than-perfect card.
The biggest issue is the user interface. Simply put, it is clunky. After scanning channels, deleting channels can only be done one at a time. It would be much more convenient to allow the user to select multiple channels using shift+click and/or ctrl+click functionality and delete groups of unwanted channels at once. (MyHD's software allows this and it is a much better solution.) Even with all of the channels properly configured, changing channels doesn't always work properly. This seems to be related to skipping encrypted channels, and certain stations seem to cause problems. If you use the "favorites" mode, most of the difficulties disappear. Besides, you don't really want to press "channel up/down" 20 times as you surf through shopping channels, do you?
One of the oddities with channels is changing between digital and analog modes. Channel 830-1 (83, subchannel 1) is the local HD broadcast of NBC, according to FusionHDTV. (It probably varies by cable provider and location, but that's not important.) While pressing "830" tunes into the channel when you're already watching another digital station, it doesn't work if you're in analog mode. Pressing the "Live" button on the remote switches between the various modes: analog, digital, or S-VIDEO. (If that doesn't make much sense to you, I'm in complete agreement. Let's just pretend "Live" is another word for "Input" or "Mode".) So, if you're watching an analog channel, you have to first press the Live button, wait for the card to tune to whatever digital station that you were on last, and then press 830. This is all basically unnecessary, since the actual channels are usually discrete (i.e. channel 83 will in most cases have either analog or digital content, but not both). It would be better to forget about switching between analog and digital modes manually - or at least make that an advanced option for those who want it.
Perhaps a more annoying problem is that there's no way to get TitanTV to tune in to digital cable channels automatically, so you'll have to schedule recordings for DTV channels manually. The onscreen Guide also doesn't work for me - it shows up blank - but this appears to be at least partly Comcast's fault. The FusionHDTV software is supposed to read the EPG information from the channel stream, but Comcast isn't including that in my area, as far as I can tell. (This was a problem on the MyHD as well, so that lends credence to the assumption that the local Comcast provider is to blame.)
One other issue is that we could not get the uninstall program to work in the normal manner. Using the Add/Remove Programs tool in the control panel, selecting DVICO FusionHDTV and then pressing the "Remove" button causes CPU usage to climb to 100%; memory usage climbs up well over 1GB, but the software remains installed. The solution is to relaunch the setup application and select uninstall from there. This may have been remedied in the latest release as well, but I haven't had a reason to uninstall the latest FusionHDTV build.
Despite the above issues, all is not lost. Analog TV reception was good, though not great. Viewing and recording analog channels worked without any hassle, and even in the older software version, we never encountered problems with the analog support. There is a quirk with analog recordings in that the FusionHDTV interface for playing files doesn't show anything but .TP files if you're in the fullscreen mode, and there's no way to open MPEG or AVI files without using a mouse. Remember how we said that the remote was pretty ugly anyway? You might seriously consider saving money by getting the "Lite" version of the card and investing in a quality wireless mouse. Another problem with our analog recordings is that they have a high-pitched noise. It seems to be an artifact of the encoding/recording process, and it really needs to be fixed. Anyway, the analog mode certainly isn't going to win over people looking for the best noise reduction, comb filtering, etc., but it will suffice for most people who want HD/QAM support first and decent analog support second.
The Fusion5 card is Windows MCE compliant, but only the analog and OTA DTV reception work with the Windows MCE interface. Given the issues with the FusionHDTV software, MCE seems like a great idea. The loss of QAM channels in MCE would be a problem, but you can still run the FusionHDTV software on MCE for occasions where QAM decoding is desired. Of course, you cannot run both the MCE application and FusionHDTV concurrently, as only one application has access to overlay mode at a time. If a large portion of your TV viewing is still analog channels, though, this card provides an interesting alternative to buying both an OTA HDTV tuner and a separate analog card. Or you could get a better quality analog card and simply use this card as a standard HDTV receiver, with or without the QAM support.
Another plus, relative to its main competitor, is the overlay mode. If you've ever wanted to do away with overscan on televisions (which occurs on both analog and digital TVs), piping the content through the graphics card will work. The video window can be scaled smoothly from whatever size you want up to the maximum resolution, and double-clicking the window or pressing the "Fullscreen" button on the remote serves as a quick shortcut. It seems like a small thing, but when you try some software that lacks this feature, you'll really miss it. The HD output in fullscreen mode looked pretty close to the quality of the output from the Comcast box, and with a bit of adjustment to the TV, it would be difficult to see the difference.
In the end, this card is something of an ugly duckling. (One has to wonder what Fusion 1 through 4 were like.) It started out with stability issues, periodic crashes, and lost channel lineups. Initially, I really wouldn't be able to recommend the card (unless the idea of paying to be a beta tester sounds like fun). However, the latest software release has turned this card into... well, certainly not a beautiful swan, but it's also no longer an ugly duckling. The UI is still less than stellar, but you can learn to live with it. There are positive and negative aspects, but it ends up being like an ornery old pet that you can't help but like. Image quality on the digital channels is as good as any other card that we've seen, and analog reception is acceptable as well. Configuring the recording options is slightly easier than on the MyHD, and at least that portion of the Fusion interface is superior from a usability standpoint. It's not perfect, by any means, but it might just be "good enough" if you're in the market for an all-in-one TV tuner.
Most of you are probably after a single piece of information: how does the Fusion5 fare in actual use? For the most part, the Fusion5 works as expected. Channel setup/acclimation is painful, but once you've found your favorite stations and/or become used to the new channel locations, everything works quite well. We had a ton of comments about difficulties with using the FusionHDTV software when we were using version 3.11, but we're glad that we can forget about most of the serious problems and simply recommend users upgrade to the latest 3.19.05 release (or perhaps even a newer version). However, there are still a few issues that remain that make this a less-than-perfect card.
The biggest issue is the user interface. Simply put, it is clunky. After scanning channels, deleting channels can only be done one at a time. It would be much more convenient to allow the user to select multiple channels using shift+click and/or ctrl+click functionality and delete groups of unwanted channels at once. (MyHD's software allows this and it is a much better solution.) Even with all of the channels properly configured, changing channels doesn't always work properly. This seems to be related to skipping encrypted channels, and certain stations seem to cause problems. If you use the "favorites" mode, most of the difficulties disappear. Besides, you don't really want to press "channel up/down" 20 times as you surf through shopping channels, do you?
One of the oddities with channels is changing between digital and analog modes. Channel 830-1 (83, subchannel 1) is the local HD broadcast of NBC, according to FusionHDTV. (It probably varies by cable provider and location, but that's not important.) While pressing "830" tunes into the channel when you're already watching another digital station, it doesn't work if you're in analog mode. Pressing the "Live" button on the remote switches between the various modes: analog, digital, or S-VIDEO. (If that doesn't make much sense to you, I'm in complete agreement. Let's just pretend "Live" is another word for "Input" or "Mode".) So, if you're watching an analog channel, you have to first press the Live button, wait for the card to tune to whatever digital station that you were on last, and then press 830. This is all basically unnecessary, since the actual channels are usually discrete (i.e. channel 83 will in most cases have either analog or digital content, but not both). It would be better to forget about switching between analog and digital modes manually - or at least make that an advanced option for those who want it.
Click to enlarge.
Perhaps a more annoying problem is that there's no way to get TitanTV to tune in to digital cable channels automatically, so you'll have to schedule recordings for DTV channels manually. The onscreen Guide also doesn't work for me - it shows up blank - but this appears to be at least partly Comcast's fault. The FusionHDTV software is supposed to read the EPG information from the channel stream, but Comcast isn't including that in my area, as far as I can tell. (This was a problem on the MyHD as well, so that lends credence to the assumption that the local Comcast provider is to blame.)
One other issue is that we could not get the uninstall program to work in the normal manner. Using the Add/Remove Programs tool in the control panel, selecting DVICO FusionHDTV and then pressing the "Remove" button causes CPU usage to climb to 100%; memory usage climbs up well over 1GB, but the software remains installed. The solution is to relaunch the setup application and select uninstall from there. This may have been remedied in the latest release as well, but I haven't had a reason to uninstall the latest FusionHDTV build.
Despite the above issues, all is not lost. Analog TV reception was good, though not great. Viewing and recording analog channels worked without any hassle, and even in the older software version, we never encountered problems with the analog support. There is a quirk with analog recordings in that the FusionHDTV interface for playing files doesn't show anything but .TP files if you're in the fullscreen mode, and there's no way to open MPEG or AVI files without using a mouse. Remember how we said that the remote was pretty ugly anyway? You might seriously consider saving money by getting the "Lite" version of the card and investing in a quality wireless mouse. Another problem with our analog recordings is that they have a high-pitched noise. It seems to be an artifact of the encoding/recording process, and it really needs to be fixed. Anyway, the analog mode certainly isn't going to win over people looking for the best noise reduction, comb filtering, etc., but it will suffice for most people who want HD/QAM support first and decent analog support second.
The Fusion5 card is Windows MCE compliant, but only the analog and OTA DTV reception work with the Windows MCE interface. Given the issues with the FusionHDTV software, MCE seems like a great idea. The loss of QAM channels in MCE would be a problem, but you can still run the FusionHDTV software on MCE for occasions where QAM decoding is desired. Of course, you cannot run both the MCE application and FusionHDTV concurrently, as only one application has access to overlay mode at a time. If a large portion of your TV viewing is still analog channels, though, this card provides an interesting alternative to buying both an OTA HDTV tuner and a separate analog card. Or you could get a better quality analog card and simply use this card as a standard HDTV receiver, with or without the QAM support.
Another plus, relative to its main competitor, is the overlay mode. If you've ever wanted to do away with overscan on televisions (which occurs on both analog and digital TVs), piping the content through the graphics card will work. The video window can be scaled smoothly from whatever size you want up to the maximum resolution, and double-clicking the window or pressing the "Fullscreen" button on the remote serves as a quick shortcut. It seems like a small thing, but when you try some software that lacks this feature, you'll really miss it. The HD output in fullscreen mode looked pretty close to the quality of the output from the Comcast box, and with a bit of adjustment to the TV, it would be difficult to see the difference.
In the end, this card is something of an ugly duckling. (One has to wonder what Fusion 1 through 4 were like.) It started out with stability issues, periodic crashes, and lost channel lineups. Initially, I really wouldn't be able to recommend the card (unless the idea of paying to be a beta tester sounds like fun). However, the latest software release has turned this card into... well, certainly not a beautiful swan, but it's also no longer an ugly duckling. The UI is still less than stellar, but you can learn to live with it. There are positive and negative aspects, but it ends up being like an ornery old pet that you can't help but like. Image quality on the digital channels is as good as any other card that we've seen, and analog reception is acceptable as well. Configuring the recording options is slightly easier than on the MyHD, and at least that portion of the Fusion interface is superior from a usability standpoint. It's not perfect, by any means, but it might just be "good enough" if you're in the market for an all-in-one TV tuner.
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nastasin - Tuesday, August 8, 2006 - link
I am trying to choose the right tuner card for my HTPC and could use some advice. My top three choices are: MyHD MDP-130, ADS Tech PTV 380-ef, Kworld ATSC 110. All have strengths and weaknesses. this is used exclusively for HT except when doing HTPC maintenance.Specs: AMD 3800, 1g RAM, 500g HD, 6800GT, Panasonic AE-900 HD projector (DVI) w/110" Firehawk screen & 17" dell flat panel (analog).
OS: Windows MCE
Requirements:
PCI based card (no PCI-e)
Must operate with windows MCE
Able to operated using a remote
Able to display using digital cable (no OTA necessary)
Able to display in near original picture resolution and clarity
Record shows from digital cable
Priced under $200 is possible
Thanks
nvmarino - Thursday, December 8, 2005 - link
First off, thanks for the article. I have been spending quite a bit of time with various HTPC components over the past few months/years with HD capture cards being the one big hole in my research. Your article definitely helped clear up a few questions I had about the MyHD and DVICO cards. Thanks for that.I am still slightly confused about the functionality of the MyHD card though. You mention when switching to "HD" mode on the card it "bypasses the graphics card and uses the output of the MyHD card instead." Is this the *only* option for outputting HD, or can it be output directly from the graphics adapter without using the pass-through? If you can output directly via the PC graphics card, is the decoding still done by the MyHD hardware, or is it then the responsibility of the CPU/Graphics card? With old school MPEG2 decoder cards that worked via pass-through (like the Sigma Designs Hollywood+), the card could only output via its own video output. So if you wanted the output of your graphics card and MPEG2 video decoded by the H+ on the display, your only option was to use VGA pass-through. Just curious if this card works the same way.
One tip on getting HD output from your graphics card - in my experience a little utility called powerstrip (http://entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm)">http://entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm) is something you simply cannot do without. Powerstrip offers fine tuning of your video way beyond what you get from the card manufacturers and it operates independently of the manufacturers drivers so you won't get all those annoying issues with the resolution bouncing around when rebooting and such - at least once the application loads (your resolution might be screwy until you log in to the box and powerstrip kicks in though.) I've been using it for years to get HD resolutions out of my cards. The most useful resolution for me - 960x540 (or some derivative of to accommodate for overscan) output in 1080i. My TV isn't capable of 720P and, as you mention, 1080i is terrible for outputting anything but video. But 960x540 (essentially 540P) output using 1080i timing is crystal clear and rock solid with both text and video. I am at a loss as to why ATI and NVIDIA drivers are still painful and limited when dealing with HD resolutions while a third party utility is able to achieve such impressive results.
On another topic, I think there is another important option to consider that is not mentioned in your article - firewire capture directly from your cable box. This option can capture both SD and HD video, provides quality at least as good as any of the tuner cards and is much less expensive (possibly *free*). The beauty of firewire capture of analog channels is all the hard work of encoding is already done for you in the cable box - resulting in virtually zero overhead for recording. Of course, the PC still does have to decode the MPEG2, so if you want to watch HD you will still need some horsepower. However, if you don't care much about HD, you can get away with some VERY low end hardware - especially if you've got a dedicated MPEG2 decoder. Using firewire, I've been able to capture and playback smooth SD video on an 330Mhz Pentium II paired with my trusty Hollywood+ card. Of course as always there are a few caveats to firewire capture.
First off, your cable company has to offer a set top box with firewire output enabled. I've got no idea how common this is, but my cable provider (Comcast in Burlingame, CA) provides a Motorola 6200 with active firewire ports when you subscribe to HD service, which costs $5 a month. If you’re already paying the $5 a month for HD, your cost is zero. I have always subscribed to HD so I have no idea if this box would be provided to non-HD subscribers. Also, rumor has it there is some FCC mandate that requires cable companies to provide STB's with firewire output enabled, so you might even be able to get one of these boxes just by calling your provider and asking for one. Also, take in to consideration that you would need one STB for every channel you wanted to access simultaneously. So if you want to record one channel while watching another, you need two STB's - not quite as simple as splitting your cable line to multiple tuners and could incur additional costs.
Second, depending on your provider, firewire capture will most likely only work with non-copy protected channels. This is thanks to a DRM scheme known as 5C. The net net of 5C is that if the device connected to the STB is not 5C compliant (which your PC firewire port is not), the cable box will only allow channels which are allowed to be copied freely (most likely broadcast channels only) to be output via the firewire port. I have read that cable providers in some areas have not turned on 5C content protection yet, so you can get every channel via firewire, but rest assured they will at some point. As I only subscribe to basic cable I cannot comment on whether pay channels are accessible via firewire in my area. The solution to this of course *might* be when cablecard finally comes to the PC, but we'll see if that ever happens - even if it does, I'm sure the devices will implement 5C properly so you will only be allowed to record shows the provides want you to - and other restrictions such as the number of times you can copy a show will be enforced - but these restriction will also be enforced on all DVR's at some point so at least PC capture solutions will be on equal ground.
And finally (for those of you still with me) setting up firewire capture is a royal pain in the ass. I definitely wouldn't recommend it for the non-technically inclined, but if you are willing to invest the time, I've been able to get great results with both SageTV on Windows and MythTV on Linux. It is also possible to configure firewire capture with MCE but, as far as I understand, it is a bit of a kludge in that you need an analog tuner for every firewire device you want to capture from, even though you aren't using the capture card. I have no experience with configuring MCE with firewire so I could be completely off base here.
For those who are interested in pursuing setting up firewire capture and/or HD output from their video cards, www.avsforum.com is definitely the best place to start. I'd also recommend checking out the forums for SageTV if you want to pursue that option, the forums at www.thegreenbutton.com for getting MCE running with firewire, and http://wilsonet.com/mythtv/">http://wilsonet.com/mythtv/ for a great "how to" on getting MythTV up and running, which includes info and further links on both firewire capture and HD output.
--Nino
JarredWalton - Thursday, December 8, 2005 - link
Great post, nino!I actually have thought about the firewire aspect, but I didn't mention it as I haven't actually attempted it yet. Everything I've read points back to your one comment: "setting up firewire capture is a royal pain in the ass". LOL - and that might be somewhat understated. Firewire also doesn't allow you to do the tuning on the PC, as I understand it: the STB has to be tuned into the channel. It's more like using an old VCR to manually record something, but that's still better than nothing, right?
For the MyHD card, it does hardware decoding and outputs its own signal in bypass (HD) mode. It appears to be the straight DTV content, which is a good way of handling that I think. The card has an overlay mode that shows a preview of the content in a window. Due to the PCI bus bandwidth limitations, though, it is limited to 720x480 resolution (at 30/60 FPS depending on how you configure MyHD). I mentioned this above, as basically 720p and 1080i uncompressed signals can't be piped via overlay since they contain too much data.
nvmarino - Friday, December 9, 2005 - link
Thanks, Jarred. Not bad for my first post, eh? :) I've been reading Anand on a regular basis for years so I guess it's about time I contributed something to the community!As for channel changing, it is now supported via firewire, so no need to do anything manually. Firewire capture works just like any other tuner in SageTV or MythTV - just a little trickier to get setup.
Ah yes, it makes sense the MyHD card couldn't decode and then pass the video via PCI due to bandwidth... Thanks for the clarification
On another note - After taking a second look at the article, I found the results of Digital TV performance very confusing. My understanding is that a digital stream is already encoded and compressed, which you also mention in the article, so I would expect the only overhead when recording - assuming you are not doing any transcoding - would be writing to disk - which I would expect to not be much overhead at all. Since the real work with a digital stream is in decoding the stream for playback, that's where I would expect any significant overhead to kick in - at least when doing the decoding in software such as with the Fusion. However, unless I'm misinterpreting something, the Fusion graphs tell a very different story. I am confused even further by how DxVA could affect the performance of capture, again unless there was some trascoding or some other processing going on.
In an effort to figure out if I was misunderstanding something I did some testing with one of my boxes (a 2.4GHz P4) and the results are much closer to what I would expect. When capturing via firewire (I'm using VLC media player for the capture), my CPU usage hovers between 4% and 10%. I have VLC saving the stream as PS, which is about the only work I would expect the cards to have to do when capturing a digital stream. So where is all that extra overhead coming from?
When playing back the stream on the same box (I am using the NVIDIA PureVideo decoder on an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro) my CPU hovers between 25% - 35% usage with HW acceleration enabled. When I disable acceleration, CPU usage shoots up to about 80% and over 100% with lots of motion, resulting in choppy playback.
On a side note, these results are with HT disabled. I was originally testing with HT enabled on my P4 and it *looked* like the CPU was only sitting at about 40% when playing back with no acceleration, so I couldn't understand why playback was getting choppy. As soon as I disabled HT it became clear the CPU was over taxed.
The only conclusion I can come to is something is misbehaving when capturing with the Fusion - either the driver or the capture software. Thoughts?
--Nino
JarredWalton - Friday, December 9, 2005 - link
I probably didn't make this clear: "recording" was really "watching and recording" - basically a worst case scenario. I believe both the Fusion and MyHD can be setup to record a channel without displaying the content, in which case the CPU use drops to 5 to 10% or something. Basically, I was watching a channel and then I would press the "record" button.I'll have to give Firewire a shot in the near future - of course you need to have a digital cable + HD STB in order to capture that way, which is $25 a month extra over the cost of basic cable, but I have that regardless.
nvmarino - Saturday, December 10, 2005 - link
Gotcha - now I understand the numbers.For cable service, the a bare minimum is basic ($12) + HD ($5), at least in my area - bringing my grand total to $17 hard earned bones a month. Comcast doesn't require me to order digital to get HD. Of course I'm only getting very basic service but as long as I get football and Lost in HD I'm happy as a pig in sh.... I spend much more time in front of the PC than the telly anyway which is how I justify paying nearly 4x that for my broadband connection. :)
Also, my recent testing uncovered something I was unsure of earlier. I can capture pretty much every basic SD channel via firewire, but I can only capture the major broadcast networks in HD. ESPN HD, INHD, and Discovery HD, for example, are DRM'd so no FW capture is possible.
Here are a few pointers that will hopefully save you (or anyone else who wants to give FW capture a shot...) some time getting started.
The firewire drivers can be downloaded here:
http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community/shwmessage...">http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community...6&Me...
Once you get the drivers installed, I've found the simplest way to test is to use VLC (download here http://www.videolan.org/)">http://www.videolan.org/) to either watch or capture the stream. Once you have VLC installed, you can watch the stream like this:
File --> Open Capture Device
"Video device name" --> click the "Refresh list" button
In the "Video device name" dropdown, you should now see two options for your STB, a "tuner" device and a "Panel" device. Choose the "Tuner" device.
Click "OK" and that's it. If all went well you should be watching the firewire feed on your monitor. Oh yeah, make sure the STB is tuned to a basic channel so you don't have to worry about 5C DRM.
One thing to consider - as far as I know VLC doesn't support DxVA so if you're not on a beefy box, playing HD streams directly in VLC will be choppy.
Which brings me to my next topic - capturing with VLC...
Follow all the steps above except clicking "OK".
Once you've got your tuner selected as the video device, check the "Stream output" box and click the "Settings" button.
In the settings screen, check the "file" box and put the file where ever you want it, just make sure you save it with a .mpg extension
Click "OK" and "OK" and now you're capturing!
To stop capturing, just click the stop button on VLC.
Now, to play back the capture, I'd highly recommend the NVIDIA PureVideo decoder - even if you have an ATI card. You can download a 30-day trial here:
http://www.nvidia.com/object/dvd_decoder.html">http://www.nvidia.com/object/dvd_decoder.html
I've had mixed results with other decoders handling an HD capture properly, but I'm sure there are others out there that would work as well.
Once you've installed the decoder, you should have no problem playing the .mpg file you captured in Windows Media Player.
That's about it for the easy part! You're on your own from here. There are instructions for getting FW working in MCE in the driver download package, or you can view the readme directly online here:
http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community/download.a...">http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community...load.asp...
And for SageTV, you can find an excellent setup guide here:
http://forums.freytechnologies.com/forums/showthre...">http://forums.freytechnologies.com/foru...owthread...
Good Luck!
--Nino
JarredWalton - Sunday, December 11, 2005 - link
Thanks again! I'll be giving that a shot in the relatively near future. (Got a few other articles to finish first.)JarredWalton - Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - link
You can download some demo files to test out how the DVICO card would fare on your PC if you want. A reader sent me this tip. http://www.fusionhdtv.co.kr/ENG/Download/Demo.aspx">Here's the link, if you're interested.xtknight - Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - link
Great review, I enjoyed the downloadable stream clips from all the cards in the different modes.JarredWalton - Wednesday, December 7, 2005 - link
Last I checked (this morning), about 125 people had downloaded the video clips. I'm actually curious to what the readers feel about using BitTorrent for this. It seems like a natural fit to me, as even a fast data center connection can be overwhelmed by a bunch of people downloading video clips. How was the speed? Did you like this? (Maybe we can get some sort of Torrent server on an AnandTech server in the future so that I'm not using my home network. LOL)