AVADirect Clevo P170EM: Has AMD’s HD 7970M Got Game?
by Jarred Walton on October 2, 2012 1:35 PM ESTSetting the Stage: Performance Expectations
Before we get to the actual performance, I need to go off on a tangent for a minute. First, I need to start by pointing back to our overview of AMD’s Enduro technology. I’ve been wrangling with AMD for a while over Enduro and 7970M, and my delays have lasted long enough that the public Enduro 5.5 update is now available. As I noted in the beginning of the first Enduro article, my initial impressions weren’t particularly good to say the least, and my first encounter with the P170EM didn’t assuage my concerns. Thankfully, AMD has been working to improve/fix the technology, and the public Enduro 5.5 driver at least installs and updates the UI for Enduro, with the promise of future driver releases.
There were many comments on the Enduro article, and in general most of those comments weren’t particularly favorable towards AMD or the HD 7970M, but my experience suggests that (nearly?) all of the problems can be fixed with driver updates. One complaint in particular is with GPU underutilization—that the 7970M in some games is only running at 50-70% utilization, and thus delivers lower than expected frame rates. The public 12.9 Beta drivers still have this problem in many games, but AMD knows this and is working to fix things. Let me first describe what’s happening before getting to the fix.
When you max out the details in most games the 7970M will still get above 30FPS, which is good. Unfortunately, in some titles the GPU utilization will drop well below 90% and this results in a very perceptible drop in performance. So for example, a game like Battlefield 3 might go from a smooth 40+ FPS down to 20FPS for a second or two, then back to 40+ FPS—lather, rinse, and repeat. As you can imagine, that makes serious multiplayer gaming a real problem, and at lower detail settings (with higher frame rates), the GPU utilization is even worse (sometimes lower than 50%). Going through our current gaming test suite, in some of our test titles we only get slightly improved frame rates despite dramatically lower complexity. Owners of 7970M notebooks have expressed a great deal of frustration with AMD over the situation, and the lack of driver updates has only heightened the irritation.
Thankfully, AMD is set to address the driver updates issue with their new Enduro Catalyst program. What’s more, AMD is aware of the GPU underutilization problem and they’re working to address that as well. The initial 12.9 Beta driver still has underutilization problems, but AMD plans to release a hotfix in the next week or so that should hopefully clear things up. It appears that the problem is related to the copying of frames over the PCIe bus (among other things), as the problem becomes more pronounced in games that hit higher frame rates. AMD states that they can improve the situation with driver tweaks, and to prove this they gave us advanced access to the hotfix drivers (hence the additional delays). We’ll be looking at performance with three sets of drivers to show how things have/haven’t changed since the 7970M launch. The short summary is that the performance potential is certainly there, and AMD appears to understand how critical mobile driver updates are for gaming notebooks, but we’ll have to revisit the topic again in another couple of months to find out how well AMD is able to follow through with promised improvements and regular driver updates.
Taking a look at the bigger picture, we’re now roughly at the performance level of the desktop HD 5850 from three years back, but using about half as much power and with some architectural enhancements that can further improve performance in some titles. Looking at today’s desktop PCs, the HD 7970M uses the Wimbledon XT core (basically mobile Pitcairn) and it’s clocked at nearly identical speeds to the desktop HD 7850 (10MHz lower on the core clock). The 2GB cards go for $200 these days, which means you’re paying roughly twice as much for a GPU binned to draw 50W less power and work in a notebook. As a desktop card, the 7850 was reasonably attractive at launch, with good power characteristics and the ability to handle nearly all titles at maximum detail and 1920x1200 (close enough to 1080p) while staying comfortably above 30FPS. The mobile 7970M should be able to match that performance…assuming Enduro technology doesn’t get in the way.
CPU performance and general laptop usability on the other hand are mostly free from concerns. We noted that the Kingston RAM is only running at DDR3-1333 speeds, but the additional bandwidth of DDR3-1600 should only improve things by a couple percent at best. The i7-3720QM is as fast here as it has been in other notebooks, and the SSD storage makes everything you do very responsive. Just how responsive is the P170EM? It takes longer for the notebook to POST (around 12 seconds) than it does for it to load Windows or resume from hibernation. Of course, there’s a problem with that statement; 12 seconds to POST is absurdly long and it points to one of Clevo’s shortcomings: firmware.
Besides the lengthy POST process (as a point of comparison, the Samsung Series 7 Chronos POSTs in under six seconds), there are other firmware/BIOS issues. The biggest is with battery life, which is nowhere near what we would expect from a 77Wh battery and switchable graphics (i.e. the dGPU is off when not in use). This applies to both the AMD Enduro and NVIDIA Optimus variants of the notebook, incidentally, with results that are nearly the same on the two notebooks; it looks like Clevo simply hasn’t done a very good job in optimizing for battery life. Best-case, I was able to hit just 3.5 hours of battery life with a P170EM, running an idle workload; our Internet battery testing usually drops battery life by 20-25%, but with the P170EM we only see a 3% drop, and the drop for the H.264 playback result is likewise small at just 10% less than the Internet result.
Put another way, we’ve seen quad-core Ivy Bridge laptops that draw 7-10W at idle (e.g. the Acer V3-571G draws around 7.3W at idle while the Samsung Series 7 draws 10.3W); the P170EM by comparison draws around 21W at idle, over twice as much as the Samsung Series 7—and both are using 17.3” LCDs, so the comparison is quite reasonable. For Internet battery life, the Samsung draws around 12.5W compared to 21.8W for the P170EM; the closest it gets is for H.264 where the Samsung draws 16.5W and the P170EM draws 24.2W. Presumably the battery life could be improved with a firmware/BIOS update, but in the past Clevo hasn’t been all that great at addressing such issues—the W110ER is another example of this, where Vivek’s initial testing of Eurocom’s Monster 1.0 yielded excellent battery life results but subsequent testing of a different W110ER showed significantly lower battery life (and again, Clevo’s site doesn’t list any BIOS revisions). Basically, don’t expect great battery life from the P170EM; most of you probably aren’t that concerned anyway, as a 17.3” 10-pound notebook isn’t exactly designed for mobile warriors in the first place, but we’ve seen better elsewhere (e.g. Alienware’s M17x R4).
Benchmarked Hardware
Now that you know what to expect when we get to the benchmarks, let’s see how the P170EM fares. Here’s the lineup of notebooks we’ll be including in our graphs, though you can always turn to Mobile Bench to make your own comparisons. (Note that the laptop names link to our full reviews.)
| Notebook Configuration Overview | ||||
| Laptop | CPU | Graphics | Storage | Battery |
| AlienwareM17x R4 | Intel i7-3720QM | GTX680M/HD4000 | Hybrid (Intel SRT) | 90Wh |
| AlienwareM18x R2 | Intel i7-3820QM | GTX680M-SLI/HD4000 | SSD RAID | 97Wh |
| ASUS G74SX-A2 | Intel i7-2630QM | GTX560M/HD3000 | SSD | 90Wh |
| AVADirect Clevo P170EM | Intel i7-3720QM | HD7970M/HD4000 | SSD | 77Wh |
| Clevo W110ER | Intel i7-3720QM | GT650M/HD4000 | Hybrid (Seagate) | 62Wh |
| iBUYPOWERCZ-17(MSI GT70) | Intel i7-3610QM | GTX675M/HD4000 | SSD | 60Wh |
| Razer Blade | Intel i7-2640M | GT555M/HD3000 | SSD | 60Wh |
| Samsung Series 7 | Intel i7-3615QM | GT650M/HD4000 | Hybrid (ExpressCache) | 77Wh |
We’ll highlight the Alienware M17x R4 and Samsung Series 7 as two alternative notebooks, with the M17x offering similar hardware but with a GTX 680M and the Samsung going for a mainstream audience with a far more attractive design and keyboard and a much lower price tag. We also suggest you keep an eye on the last-generation GTX 675M in the iBUYPOWER CZ-17, as you can get the same GTX 675M in the P170EM for $100 less than the 7970M. At the top we also have the SLI enabled M18x R2, priced at roughly twice the cost of the P170EM configuration with performance to match, and just for fun we have the Clevo W110ER (Eurocom Monster 1.0) and the original Razer Blade thrown into the mix.
Facebook
Twitter
RSS
61 Comments
View All Comments
mrhumble1 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Dood, you are a little too harsh on the design of the Sager/Clevo chassis.I own a NP9150 and will be the first to admit it's no looker. However, we (gamers) do not buy these things for their looks. We want to impress people by quoting specs, not be showing it off in a coffee shop.
Also, you complain about the HDMI port being on the back. So you think it would be better placed on the side?? Really?? I plug my laptop into my entertainment center via HDMI (like a console, but much better visuals) and I would find it very cumbersome if the port was on the side.
Finally, the keyboard. I seriously think you got a bad one. I think the keyboard is just fine, and I am not alone.
So you end up saying "it's really fast so if that's what you are looking for then it's a good option". Huh?? If it IS what one is looking for then it's a total winner.
JarredWalton - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
HDMI port on the side would be preferable in my book, yes. Reaching behind the notebook to plug in a display is cumbersome, and if you close the display then the system goes into hibernate/sleep mode (unless you disable that, but then when you forget it's disabled and you close the lid and nothing happens you get irritated that you disabled the option).My conclusion is more correctly stated as: P170EM is really fast and it's less expensive than an Alienware and about the same price as an MSI. All three are still expensive, however, and if you can try them all out in person you may find you really like one more than the other. You also need to make sure you really want a top-end gaming notebook, as there are other notebooks that cost less and can still deliver a good gaming experience (though not with all settings cranked to 11).
Personally, I would take the M17x R4, even though it costs more. I'd probably buy the cheapest model other than the GPU, and I'd upgrade the RAM and storage on my own since it would be less expensive that way. But if you prefer a matte LCD, I'd probably go for the MSI (better keyboard than the Clevo IMO, and better LCD than the glossy mirror on the M17x). And if you don't care about the keyboard the Clevo is fine.
It's okay to buy a laptop that doesn't look awesome; the most important aspect is how you think the laptop feels. Buying to impress people with specs, on the other hand... well, people do it but I certainly don't condone e-penis contests! For me personally, the Clevo keyboard doesn't feel good. And for the record, I have two P170EM units as well as a P150EM undergoing testing. I guess the keys aren't necessarily loose... they're just flat with horrible key travel. It feels as bad to me as typing on the first generation Ultrabooks, which is unbelievable for a chassis that's nearly two inches thick.
mrhumble1 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Yeah my point wasn't very well made regarding "impressing with specs." I meant it's a lot easier to forgive a laptop for being ugly when you note that it's much more powerful than any other laptop. Mentioning this is not bragging, but noting the point of owning this laptop is so it can play games with settings maxed out.The typing experience really boils down to personal preference. I am typing on the NP9150 and I actually prefer this keyboard to the one I have at work. I have always liked tight laptop keyboards though, so it's right up my alley. You might want to just state your opinion and note that "your mileage may vary". You might hate it, but it's certainly not BAD.
Finally, you spend a lot of time comparing it to other laptops and not focusing on its own merits. The advantage of the Clevo chassis is that you basically get to build your own. 15", 17", hard drive vs optical vs empty bay, memory options, GPU options, etc. I just checked, and Dell doesn't even offer a 15" model. If you want the most options for a reasonable cost (yes it's expensive but you get a LOT) then Sager/Clevo is really the best way to get exactly what you want.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
So when you look for a gaming machine, you are more concerned about it being metal (heavy/hot) and looking pretty, and the keyboard than getting the most performance for your money and the best available choices on LCD? There is only one component that I look at 100% of the time when I'm using my laptop and that is the LCD. The keyboard is not a big deal since if I'm gaming, I'm plugged in to A/C, I can easily just attach an external keyboard is it's that big of a deal, but it isn't. For the majority of people buying a Clevo, they won't have problems with the keyboard.TrantaLocked - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
I personally do not buy a laptop to impress AT ALL (responding to both mrhumble and Jarred). Buying to impress is for self-centered, materialistic fools. I buy electronics for actual reasons. I bought the Sager NP9150 because it offered the best available hardware in a decent frame at a relatively good price. To get what I wanted in an Alienware would have costed me an extra $300-$400, while if I had gone with an MSI or Asus I would have sacrificed not being able to get the 7970m.htwingnut - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
First of all, good review. I know what it can take to write an extensive and exhaustive review of a product. But I do have a few nitpicks mainly as a long time Sager/Clevo user and owner of many Sager notebooks. Many of them nitpicks, but that's just how I am.First of all I feel like a little bit of bias towards Alienware in general. As far as cost, if you price our a system with GTX 680m, i7-3720QM, 256GB SSD, blu-ray, 16GB RAM, the cost difference is around $700. Fairly significant. While base prices aren't too far off, AW tends to gig the customer with any add-ons. There is a little added value in an AW over a Clevo, but imho not close to $700 worth. Plus you don't have the options for decent screens or more configurability like you do with a Sager.
You mentioned about "GPU being held back by CPU". Just note that the i7-3610QM is way more than adequate to fuel any mobile GPU, 680m SLI included. I recorded CPU useage during gaming and benchmarks using a Sager NP9370 with 680m in SLI and average CPU use was typically 30-50%, with peak use less than 80%. Just something for users to be aware of that a faster CPU isn't needed for gaming.
Now RAM. You likely received XMP RAM, not RAM with JEDEC timings for 1600MHz. Sure the Clevo BIOS has its limitations, but it can also be circumvented using Intel's XTU software. Secondly, RAM speed is irrelevant when gaming. I've done numerous benchmarking using different CAS timings, speeds, and even single sticks and it made zero difference in most case. Most of the speed sensitivity is with the GPU.
Your complaint about the warranty is unfounded. ASUS and MSI offer 2 year warranties, and Alienware only 1. But adding any additional time on it is very expensive compared with +$79 for 2 yr and +$149 for 3 yr with the sager. I don't find issue with this at all. One thing that is beneficial with Sager/Clevo notebooks is the configurability. You only spend what you want, configured how you want, not forced into something you don't want or need. Plus Sager's warranty work turnaround time is quick.
I agree the keyboard isn't the best, but it isn't that bad. I can still easily crank out 80+WPM error-free when needed. It does have occasional missed keys, but many keyboards I've used do that. The backlighting isn't intended to be a trans siberian orchestra light show, it's there to see the keys. I guess if you want lots of configurations or control over it AW is the only way to go, but not worth the $700 up charge as noted earlier.
The touchpad isn't the best, but it's more than sufficient. This kind of laptop most users use a mouse with it. It's not the most portable machine so users aren't likely going to use the touchpad much so why invest in something that is low priority for users.
Your comment "as long as the components hold up" is also unfounded. You rarely ever hear of a Clevo machine "falling apart" because of the materials chosen. Again, it gets back to the purpose and intent of Clevo, it's performance over form, and they make form perfectly robust to last 3-4 years at least. There is nothing wrong with the materials or construction.
Comment that you want "HDMI on side instead of back" is purely personal preference. I prefer my video connections on back so they aren't in the way of my other cables. It is unfortunate though that there is no dual link DVI.
Regarding the BIOS and comment "BIOS isn't something Clevo generally supplies" is not true. While they don't post them on their site, just a quick email to support they will provide you with the latest. They update frequently and fix issues and add support for other hardware and add features. I guess it's their way of preventing too many bricks. Why not email AVADirect or Clevo for an updated BIOS and I bet you get a response with an updated file in 24 hours (business days of course).
A couple other nit picks, you note battery is 77WHr, it's actually 89WHr unless AVA Direct skimped on the battery . And the note about a $75 blu-ray add-on is superfluous considering it's a $100 add-on through Alienware. Again, users have the option to even remove the optical drive completely. Something AW doesn't let you do.
Ok, sounds like a lot of negative, but the review is good. Look forward to 680m benchmarks. I do hope AMD fixes the Enduro issues because I hate to keep having to fork over an exorbitant sum of cash for top end nVidia hardware with my next laptop.
hulawafu77 - Wednesday, October 3, 2012 - link
Well done. And I've created a thread asking feedback about the approach AnandTech took regarding this notebook. I'd like to note another reviewer of AnandTech cannot praise the Razer Blade enough even though the special CPU Razer claimed was customized for them is 50% slower in some benches and the 660M is slower in nearly every single game, sometimes 15 less than a 11" Clevo with a 650M. If you have to gimp and throttle so much because the cooling can't handle it, that's not a gaming machine. It's a pretty decoration. Also note the reviewer is a MacBook owner. Yeah true hardcore notebook gamer. Razer wants to say that is the only true gaming laptop? Yeah I disagree, I'd call that a shameless MacBook clone.I'd also like to stress to anyone reading, yes the Clevo is made of plastic, but I see no issues with it. I've owned Asus, Thinkpads, Dell, Compaq, Acer, AST, Packard Bell, HP notebooks in the past, and I have more confidence in this Clevo lasting 5+ years more than any other laptop I've owned. Also FYI to others, a plastic casing doesn't get as hot as a metal case, and it's a lot lighter. Ever touched a MacBook under stress? I have, I thought I burnt my hand.
As for CPU, I also saw a thread in which a desktop owner with a GTX 680 decided to upgraded to Ivey 3770K from his first gen i7 870. On average his improvement in FPS was .5-1 FPS. That shows how much CPU matters for games these days. Any quad core Intel i7 is not likely to be bottleneck, and we're talking about a beast GTX 680 here.
I agree with the ram. My G73JH has 1333 CL11 ram, and the P150EM I got CL9 1600 ram. Just for fun I put in 2x4GB 1600 CL9 in the G73JH. There was ZERO FPS improvements. Although it's fun to say I have the fastest ram allowed in my machine, it wouldn't make any difference, luckily ram is so cheap. A lot cheaper FYI than buying from Razer or Alienware, Alienware charges $250 for the ram upgrade I did for $68.
I agree about the touchpad. I'd say even on the go, a lot of Clevo owners have posted they just buy on the go wireless mouse, and prefer them like the Razer Orochi. I personally love my Logitech Performance MX which can be used on any surface wherever I am. Touchpad is more than adaquate if I need to use it. Double tap, zoom in, zoom out, two finger scroll, no issues.
I'd also like to add, AnanTech is constantly complaining about IPS display. This is not necessary. The TN 95% gamut matte display in the P150EM outperforms some IPS displays, as found by some Lenovo owners, to their surprise, after calibration of course. Sure it doesn't have as good viewing angles, but you have to be looking at extreme angle to see a problem. But for color accuracy, brightness, contrast, it can beat many IPS displays, even desktop ones. So I think AnandTech should just stick to asking OEM's to provide more options on high quality panels, doesn't have to be IPS. Actually the best panels are not IPS. Samsung and AOU both have panel tech (currently not available for laptop), that are much better than LG's IPS displays, using different, newer, better tech.
Like I said before, I think the perspective of this article is different from that of those who bought a Clevo. And I hope it stays that way. I do not want to pay extra just because Clevo decided to emulate Alienware or become another Apple clone, that would be awful.
JarredWalton - Thursday, October 4, 2012 - link
You guys are taking this as though I've crucified Clevo and made them out to be the worst thing ever. I don't feel I did that, and it certainly wasn't my intention; I've merely pointed out what I perceive as flaws or shortcomings. I've modified the language a bit on the keyboard just to make it clear where I'm coming from, but there's no way you can convince me it's more comfortable than other options when my hands and carpals are yelling at me.Obviously, some of this is entirely subjective: what I think about the keyboard is entirely based on my opinion as someone typing on said keyboard. I don't have any meaningful way of benchmarking keyboards because it's entirely personal, but you can read my other reviews and see what I like/dislike and go from there. It's not even about typing speed; with practice I can type fast on just about any keyboard, but I find certain keyboards are fatiguing to use and cause me physical pain after a while. Actually, all keyboards cause me pain after enough typing, but some bring on discomfort far earlier than others -- the Clevo keyboard is among them.
For the other items with build quality, let's just take the plastic construction aspect. I would rather have a mag-alloy frame under the exterior on a high-end notebook. You can use plastic on the outside if you want, but I feel a sturdier frame is desirable. Injection molded plastic is what you find on everything from $200 netbooks to $1000 consumer notebooks, all built with the goal of keeping costs down. Granted, some use thicker plastic than others (Clevo certainly does), but it's basically a cost saving measure done instead of going for higher quality. That doesn't mean build quality is horrific, but it's not really above average either. I'd rate Clevo's chassis as being roughly at the same level as the ASUS G-series, the MSI G-series, and certain Toshiba notebooks.
I do note that the customization options are good with Clevo whitebook vendors, and that's one of the major reasons to go with them over an Alienware or other OEM build. In fact, that's the major reason to go with them I'd say, though you can find companies that offer similar configurability on MSI and ASUS chassis.
Regarding warranties (this is for htwingnut, who it sounds like works for Sager?), I know that other big OEMs offer 1-year standard warranties. I'm saying I want the boutiques to do better than the big guys. Be nimble and put your support behind a product. If my motherboard goes out after 13 months for some reason, it should be replaced. The same goes for fans, hard drives, LCDs, etc. If I drop a notebook, that's a different matter, but in general use I would like some guarantee that a high-end notebook should be trouble free for three years. Is that asking too much?
Also, the battery: http://images.anandtech.com/galleries/2353/P170EM%...
I'm not sure why some people seem to think that I just guess at some of this stuff and don't do any research.
It's the BIOS stuff as well; I know there are ways to get BIOS updates, and I disagree strongly with Clevo in how those should be provided. I want the manufacturer to provide every single user with a BIOS and manufacturer explanation on how to flash. I want them to update the BIOS for the public when there are problems. I don't want to have to send an email to the vendor asking for a BIOS update, or go to a forum for Sager/Clevo users where I can find official but not officially supported BIOS versions.
I asked AVADirect about this and got the response, "Clevo does offer updated BIOS versions, but on a very limited basis. They're not very open to provide BIOS updates to the public. Even as a Clevo reseller, we have to request specific notebook BIOs versions to obtain access." Either AVADirect is lying/exaggerating, or Clevo is unwilling to do what every single other notebook manufacturer I can think of does: provide public BIOS updates on their web site. Yes, it's a problem, and if you're okay with this sort of "awesome" support I guess that's your decision. If you have an ASUS, Samsung, Dell, HP, Acer, etc. laptop and you need a new BIOS, you go to the site and get it (granted, assuming there is one). Again, in my opinion, Clevo as basically a boutique notebook supplier should again be doing better here than the large OEMs.
ckevin1 - Thursday, October 4, 2012 - link
I own the last generation of this Clevo series, a sager 151 with the 460m. I think Jared is on the mark with the criticisms of this line, and the tradeoffs you make. The point is that it can still be a good buy (even a very good one) but everyone should go into the purchase fully aware of the tradeoffs.In my experience, the weight, performance, and screen were all absolutely top notch -- that was what sold me. And I've been very happy with it, despite its faults. I still prefer it for gaming over my MBP, thanks to Apple's idiotic crusade against the right mouse button and crappy BootCamp drivers that make right click dragging impossible.
The negatives definitely include the keyboard -- mushy, causing me to miss keystrokes until I adapted to the greater pressure required. I was disappointed at first, but it became a non-issue over time. On the other hand, the lack of home and end keys in the new model is so mind-numbingly stupid that it probably would have been a deal breaker for me.
The plastic is another negative. My laptop is about a year and a half old, and generally stays on a desk at home, but somehow it still got a crack in an internal standoff in the back right corner. The result is that the tabs on a small 3/4" x 1/4" corner piece next to the hinge will no longer stay in place, and it keeps falling off. I'm going to have the chassis apart and epoxy the standoff, probably, to get rid of the flex that allows the tabs to keep popping out.
It sounds like improvement has been made on the touchpad at least; aluminum has to be better than the rough plastic texture from last generation, which started showing wear almost immediately.
mrhumble1 - Thursday, October 4, 2012 - link
I can also verify the battery I have in my new NP9150 is 76.96Wh (5200mAh). I would LOVE to get an upgraded battery. I only get a few hours out of it.