you miss the point... i am not referring to how much memory the system comes with but rather "Up to" part... 2 DIMMS and DDR4 should easily support Up To 32GB DDR4, not 8GB only.
The platform supports 32GB (16x2) DIMMs, but considering this is a sub-$1000 laptop, 8GB configurations are pretty standard. Don't forget many laptops (amazingly) still sell for 4GB, which is really mind boggling. Granted, those are $300-$400 laptops. But nothing really comes with 16GB unless its a CSO. Most laptops at Best Buy (where this will inevitably be popular) in the $700 ballpark are equipped with 8GB RAM.
There is a two-part reason to this madness. First, 8GB is essentially good enough for everyone. No home or business PC needs more than 8GB. Demanding tasks and games can use 16GB+ but not Windows, web surfing, Youtube, Office, etc. Second, it's a laptop. 16GB of RAM requires twice as long to enter and resume hibernation because you need to move that RAM data to a static file on the drive. With hard drives this is painfully slow, and with SSD's, this is a lot of unnecessary wear burning 16GB to the NAND every time the device hibernates. Of course these are worse case scenarios...hibernation swap files can be as little as 60% of total RAM capacity. It really depends how it's configured, if it can be compressed, and how much you can running when entering hibernation.
You are assuming it's the limit of the platform and not a limit of the offered memory choices (4GB or 8GB). The up too is the variations they are offering.
So if a customer goes to them and say "Can you put 16GB in it, don't care about the costs", are they going to say him "No, we only offer it with 4GB or 8GB"? Does this sounds logical to you? I mean, give the impression that this laptop can not accept more memory when in fact it can. And if yes, why?
If a customer asks for 16 GB, I think that HP will indeed say no. Why, you ask? Simple: price discrimination. They want to force you to buy a more expensive laptop from another product line. Let me tell you a story about my own experience with HP:
About a year ago, I was buying my mother a new laptop. All she does is check email and edit Word documents, so performance was not necessary. Basically, the only strict requirement was that it be 17" (so that everything is bigger for her eyes). But I also wanted to get an SSD because I didn't want her to deal with any hourglasses.
So I decided to get her an AMD APU-based laptop - nice and cheap, with decent enough performance for her needs. HP had the best prices, so I decided to go with them.
Unfortunately, HP's cheapest 17" AMD laptop only offered a mechanical hard drive. It was a steal at $300-something, but damnit, I wanted an SSD. I called HP on the phone to ask whether they could throw in an SSD. They said no, but that if I wanted to, I could buy a totally separate laptop, for about $1,000, that had both an SSD and a dedicated graphics card and a whole bunch of other useless features.
So basically, HP was artificially segmenting their own product line. They refused to upgrade a $300 laptop by adding a $150 SSD, and they wanted me to buy a $1,000 laptop instead.
So in the end, I bought the $300 laptop and I upgraded it myself with a Crucial MX300. But if my mother had to do it all herself, and she didn't have me around to upgrade the laptop, she'd have had to make a choice between a $300 laptop with a mechanical hard drive or a $1,000 laptop with an SSD (and a dedicated graphics card and a bunch of other useless features).
Again, it's price discrimination. You artificially segment the market, charging different people a different price for goods which cost the same amount to manufacture. Price discrimination requires an effective means of sorting people with different willingnesses to pay. This sorting mechanism requires the seller to be inflexible, or else their sorting mechanism will fail. Other familiar examples of price-discrimination include: --- CPUs made from the same die but with very different features (e.g. speed, cache, etc.) --- Senior discounts and student discounts
As I said, price discrimination requires the seller to be inflexible. You have to set a rule and stick to it, or else people will engage in arbitrage, buying low and selling high and circumventing the attempted discrimination. For example, if all CPUs were totally unlocked in every way, with a 2-core processor having 14 disabled cores, everyone would just buy the 2-core processor and unlock the other 14. Similarly, if movie tickets were unlimited, applying to all movies at all times, then a student could just buy a massive number of generic tickets with a student discount and scalp them all for a higher price. So price discrimination requires that the seller set strict rules which effectively sort people according to willingness to pay, and those rules cannot be broken or else the scheme fails. So HP couldn't put a $150 SSD into their $300 laptop because then a lot of people would stop buying the $1,000 laptop with the dedicated graphics card.
... similarly, I think that HP is constraining their AMD Ryzen laptop to 8 GB RAM so that people who want 16 GB will be forced to buy a more expensive Intel laptop.
If you goto HP website you have the option to get 2 x 8 = 16 or 4 x 8 = 12. HP has done good to have options with this. Every type of HD and M.2 is offered
This actually looks remarkably good. ~ 2kg, full hd ips screen, base platform with cpu/gpu is always included so only ram and ssd can change the 699$ starting price. If battery life is comparable to Intel, then they might have a winner here.
For the same performance, battery life will be better.
For max performance, battery life will be comparable.
If they manage better performance AND better autonomy, then Intel's Christmas Season sales will only be fueled by ignorant buyers willing to throw more than 600 USD on products they have no idea about :)
The fact that Intel maintained around 70% market share for 7 years between 1999 and 2006 while selling under-performing, unreliable, overheating, overpriced crap is proof that stupidity and ignorance still ruled the world at the time.
We hope today, with the incredible reach of the Internet, people will be smart, informed and not let themselves manipulated by the billions in bribes Intel has been paying for the past 2 decades : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k
So Intel will have to base all it's hopes to 90% of the consumers who have no idea what they are buying and the rest 10%, who try to find an AMD design that does not look problematic and they can't, because they are only 10 of them and all have either ridiculous prices or/and ridiculous specs and limitations and poor quality design. I better sell my house and buy Intel stock.
And no, it's not stupidity and ignorance. It's just monopoly and simple numbers. From a shop self with 50 Intel "under-performing, unreliable, overheating, overpriced crap" and 5 AMD laptops that are promoted from the sales stuff as "under-performing, unreliable, overheating, overpriced crap", because Intel models return higher profit margins to the shop, what do you expect people will buy?
AMD in the past created projects like a reference tablet, a docking station, Project Quantum and probably many others.
WHY DON'T THEY JUST CREATE A &^%( REFERENCE LAPTOP?
I really can not understand for how many years they will be kissing those pathetic, totally sold to Intel OEMs. Just create a ^$(& reference laptop, and GIVE IT AWAY to anyone interested building and selling it. Who knows. Maybe a dozen small companies from those hundreds in Shenzhen will be happy to use it, and if they see a major success in the Chinese market, maybe others will get more interested in AMD mobile CPUs also. And with others, I mean big companies in the Chinese market and who knows, latter major OEMs. But for now, those OEMs are happy to produce problematic designs that can not sell because consumers interested on an AMD laptop remain constantly in stand by mode until a good design comes out.
AMD designs, that can NOT sell, are PERFECT for them. A good alibi in case AMD goes again in courts against Intel, and nothing to threaten their relationship with Intel. Maybe it would have been better if HP and the others where NOT making AMD laptops AT ALL. Maybe that would have force AMD to take action instead of fearing it will lose those couple problematic designs.
So, $699 for a single channel 4GB *hi end* laptop that can NOT see more than 8GB of RAM. This is funny. And of course 1TB Hard disk drive at that price and NO PCIe SSD option in 2017 on a *hi end* system. It's 512 SSD OR HDD. That OR means only one storage and SATA.
Don't know, maybe that 4 core 8 threads monster that muches the performance of a NEW Kaby Lake mobile processor with the same 4 cores 8 threads specs? Last time I checked a Core i7 was considered "hi end" and there are Core i7 models with only 2 cores and 4 threads. So, if a 2 cores 4 threads Kaby is "hi end" based on Intel, how would a 4 cores 8 threads CPU should be described? Mid range? Low end? DOA?
As this clearly sin't getting through to you, I'll just spell it out for you. "Hi end" is not proper English, let alone correct terminology.
Now, just because the Ryzen Mobile used here is 4C/8T, does not mean it is a 'high-end' system. The price of this HP Envy and the rest of the components used should have been enough for you to figure that out.
Oh, you are a grammar Nazi, when trying to avoid writing arguments. OK. Got that.
I guess if someone sells a Pentium laptop at 2000 dollars, you might consider it as a - add here whatever you see correct, in place of that "hi end" I wrote.
In the long run, are we expecting AMD's newfound competitiveness to drive down laptop pricing slightly? Or are we just going to get a bit more performance in the $600-$1000 market?
Second option, we're gonna get true quad-core mobile CPU for less than $1k. Vega Mobile doesn't look that impressive, 128% better performance over Carrizo is not that much in fact I'm doubtful it would even equal a 940M or GT 1030.
That are also 1 kilo heavier just so they have enough battery capacity to keep them on for a couple hours.
You are really trying to hard to make AMD hardware look bad, when in fact is your only hope for your next Intel+Nvidia upgrade circle to be cheaper instead of more expensive.
People are paying hundreds of dollars for laptops that are lighter "500-600g at worst". But nevermind. Even if AMD produces an X86 SOC that is two times faster than Intel, with integrated graphics that perform as a GTX 1070 and comes with only 15W TDP, in your eyes, it will still be a failure compared to a desktop 18 Skylake X and two Titan XPs running at SLI. Because in that case, who needs a laptop, right?
Wonder how they price the 35-45W quads, higher or lower than these SKUs. Been a while since buying a new laptop was a sane option vs refurb. In the Llano days, buying a decent machine with a quad at 350-500$ was ok but nowadays anything with a decent SoC costs too much.
I sure hope this thing has more than one USB-C port if that's what it uses for charging, otherwise that "DP capability" is just lip service.
It's really sad to see the loss of ports, especially on a full-size laptop such as this. I hope the side not shown in the isometric view photo is packed to the gills with ports- the x360 generation with the intel 6200u has 3 USB-A ports, full-size HDMI, ethernet, and an SD reader. If that photo is any indication, it wouldn't surprise me if the latter two get the axe :*(
HP screwed up the release by gimping it with max 8GB of DDR and a traditional SSD. Wtf is wrong with HP?? Not that I expect anything novel coming out of HP but it seems like they purposely slaughtered this release
The board comments seem confused - but i guess having AMD produce an APU that can be used in a laptop will do that. The OEM's that have shut AMD out in the past will be "incentivised" to do that again but it wont matter - intel has an APU problem - they shut down the NVDA agreement for iGPU tech and figured their big CPU advantage would be enough "ruh row" - AMD seems to have a powerful and efficient APU now that bulldozer has been burried - market shift coming.
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43 Comments
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creed3020 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
That price looks great but which config is that?Now to see how much markup retailers add. Either way glad to see what looks like a very competitive laptop, just need some testing and benchmarks!
Konservenknilch - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
If the price holds up (and the availability), that's mighty tempting.XZerg - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
"Up to 8 GB DDR4 (2 DIMMs)"wtf?1/?!?! what era is this?
BrokenCrayons - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
"what era is this?"It's the Cenozoic era right now.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenozoic
IGTrading - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Can you provide links to other comparable notebooks with such a price and this level of features , specifications and performance with 16GB of RAM ?!Other than systems with lacking features or performance where the 16 GB of RAM are used as marketing cover ....
XZerg - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
you miss the point... i am not referring to how much memory the system comes with but rather "Up to" part... 2 DIMMS and DDR4 should easily support Up To 32GB DDR4, not 8GB only.Kamen75 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
This laptop could have 32GB DDR4, it's just that HP choose to go wit 8GB for this model.Samus - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
The platform supports 32GB (16x2) DIMMs, but considering this is a sub-$1000 laptop, 8GB configurations are pretty standard. Don't forget many laptops (amazingly) still sell for 4GB, which is really mind boggling. Granted, those are $300-$400 laptops. But nothing really comes with 16GB unless its a CSO. Most laptops at Best Buy (where this will inevitably be popular) in the $700 ballpark are equipped with 8GB RAM.There is a two-part reason to this madness. First, 8GB is essentially good enough for everyone. No home or business PC needs more than 8GB. Demanding tasks and games can use 16GB+ but not Windows, web surfing, Youtube, Office, etc. Second, it's a laptop. 16GB of RAM requires twice as long to enter and resume hibernation because you need to move that RAM data to a static file on the drive. With hard drives this is painfully slow, and with SSD's, this is a lot of unnecessary wear burning 16GB to the NAND every time the device hibernates. Of course these are worse case scenarios...hibernation swap files can be as little as 60% of total RAM capacity. It really depends how it's configured, if it can be compressed, and how much you can running when entering hibernation.
heffeque - Sunday, October 29, 2017 - link
As far as I know 2700U and 2500U only support up to 16 GB, not 32 GB.qlum - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
The age of skyrocketing memory pricesyannigr2 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Memory pricing has nothing to do with how much memory the system can see.Topweasel - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
You are assuming it's the limit of the platform and not a limit of the offered memory choices (4GB or 8GB). The up too is the variations they are offering.yannigr2 - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
So if a customer goes to them and say "Can you put 16GB in it, don't care about the costs", are they going to say him "No, we only offer it with 4GB or 8GB"? Does this sounds logical to you? I mean, give the impression that this laptop can not accept more memory when in fact it can. And if yes, why?Mikewind Dale - Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - link
If a customer asks for 16 GB, I think that HP will indeed say no. Why, you ask? Simple: price discrimination. They want to force you to buy a more expensive laptop from another product line. Let me tell you a story about my own experience with HP:About a year ago, I was buying my mother a new laptop. All she does is check email and edit Word documents, so performance was not necessary. Basically, the only strict requirement was that it be 17" (so that everything is bigger for her eyes). But I also wanted to get an SSD because I didn't want her to deal with any hourglasses.
So I decided to get her an AMD APU-based laptop - nice and cheap, with decent enough performance for her needs. HP had the best prices, so I decided to go with them.
Unfortunately, HP's cheapest 17" AMD laptop only offered a mechanical hard drive. It was a steal at $300-something, but damnit, I wanted an SSD. I called HP on the phone to ask whether they could throw in an SSD. They said no, but that if I wanted to, I could buy a totally separate laptop, for about $1,000, that had both an SSD and a dedicated graphics card and a whole bunch of other useless features.
So basically, HP was artificially segmenting their own product line. They refused to upgrade a $300 laptop by adding a $150 SSD, and they wanted me to buy a $1,000 laptop instead.
So in the end, I bought the $300 laptop and I upgraded it myself with a Crucial MX300. But if my mother had to do it all herself, and she didn't have me around to upgrade the laptop, she'd have had to make a choice between a $300 laptop with a mechanical hard drive or a $1,000 laptop with an SSD (and a dedicated graphics card and a bunch of other useless features).
Again, it's price discrimination. You artificially segment the market, charging different people a different price for goods which cost the same amount to manufacture. Price discrimination requires an effective means of sorting people with different willingnesses to pay. This sorting mechanism requires the seller to be inflexible, or else their sorting mechanism will fail. Other familiar examples of price-discrimination include:
--- CPUs made from the same die but with very different features (e.g. speed, cache, etc.)
--- Senior discounts and student discounts
As I said, price discrimination requires the seller to be inflexible. You have to set a rule and stick to it, or else people will engage in arbitrage, buying low and selling high and circumventing the attempted discrimination. For example, if all CPUs were totally unlocked in every way, with a 2-core processor having 14 disabled cores, everyone would just buy the 2-core processor and unlock the other 14. Similarly, if movie tickets were unlimited, applying to all movies at all times, then a student could just buy a massive number of generic tickets with a student discount and scalp them all for a higher price. So price discrimination requires that the seller set strict rules which effectively sort people according to willingness to pay, and those rules cannot be broken or else the scheme fails. So HP couldn't put a $150 SSD into their $300 laptop because then a lot of people would stop buying the $1,000 laptop with the dedicated graphics card.
Mikewind Dale - Tuesday, October 31, 2017 - link
... similarly, I think that HP is constraining their AMD Ryzen laptop to 8 GB RAM so that people who want 16 GB will be forced to buy a more expensive Intel laptop.Jleppard - Friday, November 10, 2017 - link
If you goto HP website you have the option to get 2 x 8 = 16 or 4 x 8 = 12. HP has done good to have options with this. Every type of HD and M.2 is offeredyeeeeman - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
This actually looks remarkably good. ~ 2kg, full hd ips screen, base platform with cpu/gpu is always included so only ram and ssd can change the 699$ starting price. If battery life is comparable to Intel, then they might have a winner here.IGTrading - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
For the same performance, battery life will be better.For max performance, battery life will be comparable.
If they manage better performance AND better autonomy, then Intel's Christmas Season sales will only be fueled by ignorant buyers willing to throw more than 600 USD on products they have no idea about :)
The fact that Intel maintained around 70% market share for 7 years between 1999 and 2006 while selling under-performing, unreliable, overheating, overpriced crap is proof that stupidity and ignorance still ruled the world at the time.
We hope today, with the incredible reach of the Internet, people will be smart, informed and not let themselves manipulated by the billions in bribes Intel has been paying for the past 2 decades : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k
yannigr2 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
So Intel will have to base all it's hopes to 90% of the consumers who have no idea what they are buying and the rest 10%, who try to find an AMD design that does not look problematic and they can't, because they are only 10 of them and all have either ridiculous prices or/and ridiculous specs and limitations and poor quality design.I better sell my house and buy Intel stock.
yannigr2 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
And no, it's not stupidity and ignorance. It's just monopoly and simple numbers. From a shop self with 50 Intel "under-performing, unreliable, overheating, overpriced crap" and 5 AMD laptops that are promoted from the sales stuff as "under-performing, unreliable, overheating, overpriced crap", because Intel models return higher profit margins to the shop, what do you expect people will buy?Stochastic - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
That's a big if. Fingers crossed.yannigr2 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
AMD in the past created projects like a reference tablet, a docking station, Project Quantum and probably many others.WHY DON'T THEY JUST CREATE A &^%( REFERENCE LAPTOP?
I really can not understand for how many years they will be kissing those pathetic, totally sold to Intel OEMs. Just create a ^$(& reference laptop, and GIVE IT AWAY to anyone interested building and selling it. Who knows. Maybe a dozen small companies from those hundreds in Shenzhen will be happy to use it, and if they see a major success in the Chinese market, maybe others will get more interested in AMD mobile CPUs also. And with others, I mean big companies in the Chinese market and who knows, latter major OEMs. But for now, those OEMs are happy to produce problematic designs that can not sell because consumers interested on an AMD laptop remain constantly in stand by mode until a good design comes out.
AMD designs, that can NOT sell, are PERFECT for them. A good alibi in case AMD goes again in courts against Intel, and nothing to threaten their relationship with Intel. Maybe it would have been better if HP and the others where NOT making AMD laptops AT ALL. Maybe that would have force AMD to take action instead of fearing it will lose those couple problematic designs.
So, $699 for a single channel 4GB *hi end* laptop that can NOT see more than 8GB of RAM. This is funny. And of course 1TB Hard disk drive at that price and NO PCIe SSD option in 2017 on a *hi end* system. It's 512 SSD OR HDD. That OR means only one storage and SATA.
vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Where does it say it's a "high-end system"?BrokenCrayons - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
No, no, no! You need to look for a *hi end* laptop! It's clear that you can NOT see it while looking for the wrong words. :Pyannigr2 - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
Don't know, maybe that 4 core 8 threads monster that muches the performance of a NEW Kaby Lake mobile processor with the same 4 cores 8 threads specs? Last time I checked a Core i7 was considered "hi end" and there are Core i7 models with only 2 cores and 4 threads. So, if a 2 cores 4 threads Kaby is "hi end" based on Intel, how would a 4 cores 8 threads CPU should be described? Mid range? Low end? DOA?Tams80 - Sunday, October 29, 2017 - link
As this clearly sin't getting through to you, I'll just spell it out for you. "Hi end" is not proper English, let alone correct terminology.Now, just because the Ryzen Mobile used here is 4C/8T, does not mean it is a 'high-end' system. The price of this HP Envy and the rest of the components used should have been enough for you to figure that out.
yannigr2 - Monday, October 30, 2017 - link
Oh, you are a grammar Nazi, when trying to avoid writing arguments. OK. Got that.I guess if someone sells a Pentium laptop at 2000 dollars, you might consider it as a - add here whatever you see correct, in place of that "hi end" I wrote.
Stochastic - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
In the long run, are we expecting AMD's newfound competitiveness to drive down laptop pricing slightly? Or are we just going to get a bit more performance in the $600-$1000 market?vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Second option, we're gonna get true quad-core mobile CPU for less than $1k. Vega Mobile doesn't look that impressive, 128% better performance over Carrizo is not that much in fact I'm doubtful it would even equal a 940M or GT 1030.Kamen75 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
It equals 950M actually.vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
@Lamen75 Show proof then, and no, synthetic benchmarks don't count since those are best case scenarios rarely found in real games.jjj - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
A 1030 is 30W, a 950 is 75W, this is a 15W APU and the GPU comes for "free".After all it's a 45-ish mm2 GPU, it's not gonna move mountains.
vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
That doesn't matter when you can get laptops around same price with those GPUs.yannigr2 - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
That are also 1 kilo heavier just so they have enough battery capacity to keep them on for a couple hours.You are really trying to hard to make AMD hardware look bad, when in fact is your only hope for your next Intel+Nvidia upgrade circle to be cheaper instead of more expensive.
vladx - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
1 kilo? Maybe 500-600g at worst. Also I don't need to make AMD look bad, they do a fine job at it themselves.yannigr2 - Friday, October 27, 2017 - link
People are paying hundreds of dollars for laptops that are lighter "500-600g at worst". But nevermind. Even if AMD produces an X86 SOC that is two times faster than Intel, with integrated graphics that perform as a GTX 1070 and comes with only 15W TDP, in your eyes, it will still be a failure compared to a desktop 18 Skylake X and two Titan XPs running at SLI. Because in that case, who needs a laptop, right?vladx - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Oh and fyi, mobile GT 1030 is only 25W.Tams80 - Sunday, October 29, 2017 - link
And your point is? You're still comparing a 40W Intel+Nvidia CPU/GPU (25W+15W) system to a 15W AMD APU system. They're rather different propositions.jjj - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
Wonder how they price the 35-45W quads, higher or lower than these SKUs. Been a while since buying a new laptop was a sane option vs refurb.In the Llano days, buying a decent machine with a quad at 350-500$ was ok but nowadays anything with a decent SoC costs too much.
hybrid2d4x4 - Thursday, October 26, 2017 - link
I sure hope this thing has more than one USB-C port if that's what it uses for charging, otherwise that "DP capability" is just lip service.It's really sad to see the loss of ports, especially on a full-size laptop such as this. I hope the side not shown in the isometric view photo is packed to the gills with ports- the x360 generation with the intel 6200u has 3 USB-A ports, full-size HDMI, ethernet, and an SD reader. If that photo is any indication, it wouldn't surprise me if the latter two get the axe :*(
zangheiv - Monday, October 30, 2017 - link
HP screwed up the release by gimping it with max 8GB of DDR and a traditional SSD. Wtf is wrong with HP?? Not that I expect anything novel coming out of HP but it seems like they purposely slaughtered this releasestockolicious - Thursday, November 2, 2017 - link
The board comments seem confused - but i guess having AMD produce an APU that can be used in a laptop will do that. The OEM's that have shut AMD out in the past will be "incentivised" to do that again but it wont matter - intel has an APU problem - they shut down the NVDA agreement for iGPU tech and figured their big CPU advantage would be enough "ruh row" - AMD seems to have a powerful and efficient APU now that bulldozer has been burried - market shift coming.albert89 - Sunday, November 19, 2017 - link
It would be interesting to see if AMD has included HSA in their latest APU's.