I felt the same way after graduating from Drexel U. in June of 05. Everything you said in your blog i could relate to. I went from a Mechanical Engineer to a Information Science then finally settled on Management of Information Systems, basically the business form of IST. Good webblog even if it is a year or so old....
Well , sadly the experiences described here also apply to the grad education( undergrad in USA system ) in so called "Top rated" engineering schools in India. I hope to have better experiences as I prepare myself to attend grad school in USA this fall.
Very insightful, well articulated, and extremely accurate commentary.
However, although your criticisms were deadly accurate, you offer no solutions. The polite future of becoming a teacher and trying to change the system from the inside sounds nice but ineffective. That would be just like the thousands of other teachers who have gotten into teaching with the exact same idea. I'm not dismissing the contributions of great teachers, which are good deeds, but they aren't going to remedy the problems with university learning that you've illustrated.
The more promising avenues that I've seen for higher education include private sector training and continuing education.
add University of Illinois, Champaign/Urbana to the list. It is consistently ranked in the top 5 engineering schools in the country, yet the level of disinterest and disdain shown by the professors and other levels of faculty are astounding. I often wonder if it has always been this way with large state schools, or if this is a new phenomenon. I chuckle when I get letters from the alumni association. I hope that 5-10 years from now when their alumni funds dry up that the message finally gets through: students still matter.
you clearly state that you went to college to learn, not to prepare for a job, yet you seem to be concerned about the vocational aspects/ practical applications of your subject.
state is rearing you to be a scientific researcher in the field of computer engineering, not a computer engineer. college isn't vocational school.
maybe you can then understand some choices in the curriculum
Anand, I feel the same way having recently graduated from UC Berkeley. High school was full of faculty and staff that wanted to help. College was full of faculty and staff that didn't care one way or another. At 18 and having just left home - and having to be self-reliant in so many new arenas: making college friends, greek system, living options, part-time jobs, etc. - it would make a world of difference if our schools could actually provide some guidance and decent education, rather than forming another obstacle to self-fulfillment.
I also have graduated from a (too) similar institution in Texas...but i am headed to graduate school immediately. I'll let yall know of my impression, as i am going for the Masters of Engineering, non-thesis option. It will be a Computer Engineering degree, as was my undergrad.
Congrats Anand, and thanks for all the work (as well as the work to come).
Keep in mind that by attending grad school you will get sucked into the very system of research and underqualified disinterested TA teachers that you profess to disdain. Kinda ironic actually ;-) You might come out even MORE jaded if thats possible...Haha!
I afree with drjaymez wholeheartedly. I suspect yor choice of school is at the root of the problem. It's nice to think that every school exists to serve the same purpose, but as you said in your article, this is not the case. Small focused colleges that do care about students do exist. It just so happens that most high school students don't even know about these colleges until after the fact. Just one example of the top of my head (if you are interested in engineering of any type) is Rose Hulman Institute of Technology in Terre Haute, IN. Most people hae never heard of it but it is one of the best engineering schools in the country. I suspect your experience would have been vastly different at a small school like that. Another is Oberlin College for Liberal Arts (also in Ohio) or Thunderbird in Phoenix AZ for International Business. Options exist besides the massive state run school..it's just unfortunate that more students don't take advantage of these options.
Well put, Anand. My experiences at the University of Tennessee were much like what you describe (and I feel that there are many more university's out there that are the same way). Kudos on your thought-provoking assessment.
I had a very different experience in my undergraduate career that started in 1997 (I stumbled on your site by early 1998).
I decided to attend a small "Liberal Arts" college in Northeast Ohio (Hiram College). I wanted to be a doctor, but I wanted a well rounded education as well. So I took all my hard-core science classes and graduated with a degree in biochemistry, but along the way I took classes that changed my life. I studied abroad several times, which gave me a changed world-view, and I took history and literature classes that helped me better define my sense of self and values. My favorite class ever was a Greek history class. Spirited discussion and fruitful debate were the norm in my college experience, not the exception.
I am obviously biased against large Research 1 schools, but I think that the reason I had such a great experience was a combination of the size of the school (under 1000 undergrads and no grad students) and the mission of the institution (teaching undergrads).
I think that you knew what you had a right to expect when you went in to college, and I'm not sure the average anonymous undergrad at a big school does. I also think that you probably took as much away from the experience as you could (a reflection on your own strong character). Congratulations, and best wishes for the future.
Thank you Anand for sharing your thought on the subject of secondary education. I have speculated that universities are not the place to learn engineering, and your input was very helpful.
Due to circumstances in life, I chose not to pursue the "best" eductation (opportunity to go to RPTI on scholarship...) and took 2.5 years of Tech college classes. The result? I was strong in Mechanics (Statics, Kinematics, etc.) and weaker in electrical theory and thermodynamics...but, due to a horrible professor (who incidentally, was so bad he actually DID get fired after I graduated) I came out knowing only slightly more than when I went in.
I, too, enjoy learning, and I, too, felt let down.
As far as "diversity" classes. I couldn't agree more. Why do history and geography classes in college suddenly make you more diversified than the the history and geography classes you took in high school?
In Ohio, I would have had to take the following classes (generalized titles for content).
Psychology Sociology Humanities 1 Humanities 2 Culture 1 Culture 2 Macroeconomics Speech Fine Arts 1 Fine Arts 2
I had the unfortunate privilege of taking a culture class and a humanites class. They were nothing more than history with a slighlty different spin. No interesting discussions that fostored critical thought and cultural empathy. Just a targeted history class. Did it affect anyone? Not that I'm aware of. I was still a caring, empathetic person with an open view of other cultures, and the bigot who sat next to me was still a bigot. While I certainly learned some interesting facts about China that I did not know, it didn't make me any more culturally aware than before the class. So, it wasn't beneficial personally, and it wasn't beneficial engineering wise...so, why did I just pay for this class. Even if you got rid of 3 of those classes above, that would be 3 more senior level engineering classes that could be taken...that could cover a LOT of useful material.
Just my twenty cents on a topic I haven't commented on in awhile. Interesting discussion Anand, and congrats again. I've been an AT member during the "lull" so it should be interesting to see your talents applied more fully again.
Congrats Anand on your completion of college. I think you wrote a very concise summary of what is happening on most of the campuses in the US. I've had pretty much the same experience but didn't have the drive as you to stick it out to the end. Although I feel like I should qualify and say that the experience that you and most other people had was something my husband didn't. He went to a military academy and has said that 90% of his professors were knowledgable and caring of the students. He was a bit dumbfounded to hear what it was like in the public/private secondary education arena.
I would also like to say how much I enjoy your site and the reviews that you and your staff do.
Congrats Anand. Sounds like you came out of undergrad with alot more than most because you were looking for something more and recognized that you didnt find it there. No-one does because it isnt offered there IMO. Undergrad is a funnel of different sizes depending upon the course. I would highly recommend doing some post-grad study while you still have a bit of the hunger left. It gets lost quickly. IMO you will never get the freedom and challenge that exists in post-grad study again because its up to you and those giving guidance IMExperience put aside the politics of life for your benefit.
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19 Comments
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Xenio - Sunday, July 10, 2005 - link
I felt the same way after graduating from Drexel U. in June of 05. Everything you said in your blog i could relate to. I went from a Mechanical Engineer to a Information Science then finally settled on Management of Information Systems, basically the business form of IST. Good webblog even if it is a year or so old....sachin - Saturday, July 2, 2005 - link
Well , sadly the experiences described here also apply to the grad education( undergrad in USA system ) in so called "Top rated" engineering schools in India. I hope to have better experiences as I prepare myself to attend grad school in USA this fall.Cain - Friday, May 27, 2005 - link
Very insightful, well articulated, and extremely accurate commentary.However, although your criticisms were deadly accurate, you offer no solutions. The polite future of becoming a teacher and trying to change the system from the inside sounds nice but ineffective. That would be just like the thousands of other teachers who have gotten into teaching with the exact same idea. I'm not dismissing the contributions of great teachers, which are good deeds, but they aren't going to remedy the problems with university learning that you've illustrated.
The more promising avenues that I've seen for higher education include private sector training and continuing education.
Rob - Friday, May 20, 2005 - link
add University of Illinois, Champaign/Urbana to the list. It is consistently ranked in the top 5 engineering schools in the country, yet the level of disinterest and disdain shown by the professors and other levels of faculty are astounding. I often wonder if it has always been this way with large state schools, or if this is a new phenomenon. I chuckle when I get letters from the alumni association. I hope that 5-10 years from now when their alumni funds dry up that the message finally gets through: students still matter.Dan - Thursday, July 15, 2004 - link
maybe you are looking at it the wrong way.you clearly state that you went to college to learn, not to prepare for a job, yet you seem to be concerned about the vocational aspects/ practical applications of your subject.
state is rearing you to be a scientific researcher in the field of computer engineering, not a computer engineer. college isn't vocational school.
maybe you can then understand some choices in the curriculum
AC - Wednesday, July 7, 2004 - link
Anand, I feel the same way having recently graduated from UC Berkeley. High school was full of faculty and staff that wanted to help. College was full of faculty and staff that didn't care one way or another. At 18 and having just left home - and having to be self-reliant in so many new arenas: making college friends, greek system, living options, part-time jobs, etc. - it would make a world of difference if our schools could actually provide some guidance and decent education, rather than forming another obstacle to self-fulfillment.Cliff - Monday, May 31, 2004 - link
I also have graduated from a (too) similar institution in Texas...but i am headed to graduate school immediately. I'll let yall know of my impression, as i am going for the Masters of Engineering, non-thesis option. It will be a Computer Engineering degree, as was my undergrad.Congrats Anand, and thanks for all the work (as well as the work to come).
Cliff
me - Friday, May 28, 2004 - link
Keep in mind that by attending grad school you will get sucked into the very system of research and underqualified disinterested TA teachers that you profess to disdain. Kinda ironic actually ;-) You might come out even MORE jaded if thats possible...Haha!Gino - Friday, May 28, 2004 - link
Grad school is much different from undergrad. It's nowhere near perfect, but its a better experience.me - Friday, May 28, 2004 - link
I afree with drjaymez wholeheartedly. I suspect yor choice of school is at the root of the problem. It's nice to think that every school exists to serve the same purpose, but as you said in your article, this is not the case. Small focused colleges that do care about students do exist. It just so happens that most high school students don't even know about these colleges until after the fact. Just one example of the top of my head (if you are interested in engineering of any type) is Rose Hulman Institute of Technology in Terre Haute, IN. Most people hae never heard of it but it is one of the best engineering schools in the country. I suspect your experience would have been vastly different at a small school like that. Another is Oberlin College for Liberal Arts (also in Ohio) or Thunderbird in Phoenix AZ for International Business. Options exist besides the massive state run school..it's just unfortunate that more students don't take advantage of these options.Krishna - Thursday, May 27, 2004 - link
Well put, Anand. My experiences at the University of Tennessee were much like what you describe (and I feel that there are many more university's out there that are the same way). Kudos on your thought-provoking assessment.Liam - Thursday, May 27, 2004 - link
Well, that built in system wide spellchecker in osx can probably help out that rereading problem :)Robert - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
Haha, that was a great post Anand. "Half-assed" and "damn." Wow, strong words from a strong man. I look forward to those posts.drjaymez - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
I had a very different experience in my undergraduate career that started in 1997 (I stumbled on your site by early 1998).I decided to attend a small "Liberal Arts" college in Northeast Ohio (Hiram College). I wanted to be a doctor, but I wanted a well rounded education as well. So I took all my hard-core science classes and graduated with a degree in biochemistry, but along the way I took classes that changed my life. I studied abroad several times, which gave me a changed world-view, and I took history and literature classes that helped me better define my sense of self and values. My favorite class ever was a Greek history class. Spirited discussion and fruitful debate were the norm in my college experience, not the exception.
I am obviously biased against large Research 1 schools, but I think that the reason I had such a great experience was a combination of the size of the school (under 1000 undergrads and no grad students) and the mission of the institution (teaching undergrads).
I think that you knew what you had a right to expect when you went in to college, and I'm not sure the average anonymous undergrad at a big school does. I also think that you probably took as much away from the experience as you could (a reflection on your own strong character). Congratulations, and best wishes for the future.
wolf550e - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
Thank you Anand for sharing your thought on the subject of secondary education. I have speculated that universities are not the place to learn engineering, and your input was very helpful.PrinceXizor - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
Due to circumstances in life, I chose not to pursue the "best" eductation (opportunity to go to RPTI on scholarship...) and took 2.5 years of Tech college classes. The result? I was strong in Mechanics (Statics, Kinematics, etc.) and weaker in electrical theory and thermodynamics...but, due to a horrible professor (who incidentally, was so bad he actually DID get fired after I graduated) I came out knowing only slightly more than when I went in.I, too, enjoy learning, and I, too, felt let down.
As far as "diversity" classes. I couldn't agree more. Why do history and geography classes in college suddenly make you more diversified than the the history and geography classes you took in high school?
In Ohio, I would have had to take the following classes (generalized titles for content).
Psychology
Sociology
Humanities 1
Humanities 2
Culture 1
Culture 2
Macroeconomics
Speech
Fine Arts 1
Fine Arts 2
I had the unfortunate privilege of taking a culture class and a humanites class. They were nothing more than history with a slighlty different spin. No interesting discussions that fostored critical thought and cultural empathy. Just a targeted history class. Did it affect anyone? Not that I'm aware of. I was still a caring, empathetic person with an open view of other cultures, and the bigot who sat next to me was still a bigot. While I certainly learned some interesting facts about China that I did not know, it didn't make me any more culturally aware than before the class. So, it wasn't beneficial personally, and it wasn't beneficial engineering wise...so, why did I just pay for this class. Even if you got rid of 3 of those classes above, that would be 3 more senior level engineering classes that could be taken...that could cover a LOT of useful material.
Just my twenty cents on a topic I haven't commented on in awhile. Interesting discussion Anand, and congrats again. I've been an AT member during the "lull" so it should be interesting to see your talents applied more fully again.
See ya' around!
P-X
Tiqua - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
Congrats Anand on your completion of college. I think you wrote a very concise summary of what is happening on most of the campuses in the US. I've had pretty much the same experience but didn't have the drive as you to stick it out to the end. Although I feel like I should qualify and say that the experience that you and most other people had was something my husband didn't. He went to a military academy and has said that 90% of his professors were knowledgable and caring of the students. He was a bit dumbfounded to hear what it was like in the public/private secondary education arena.I would also like to say how much I enjoy your site and the reviews that you and your staff do.
Thank you.
Tiqua
Scott - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
Good commentary... there will always be trade-offs.
As for the overclocking/overcocking comment... nowadays I think overcocking is a better term when it comes to the graphics wars!!
jeffosx - Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - link
Congrats Anand. Sounds like you came out of undergrad with alot more than most because you were looking for something more and recognized that you didnt find it there. No-one does because it isnt offered there IMO. Undergrad is a funnel of different sizes depending upon the course. I would highly recommend doing some post-grad study while you still have a bit of the hunger left. It gets lost quickly. IMO you will never get the freedom and challenge that exists in post-grad study again because its up to you and those giving guidance IMExperience put aside the politics of life for your benefit.Best of luck in any case...
Cheers