I'm looking forward to getting a Macintosh mini -- but will try to wait until it comes with OS X 10.4 installed.
I've seen numerous price comparisons between the Mac mini and various lowend Microsoft Windows machines. When the conclusion is "we found that we could buy a Dell PC for $67 less," I think the reviewer is not considering the larger picture. With the Mac mini you get OS X. That alone is worth the price of admission, in my experience. What's that line about people who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing?
#28 : Quartz Extreme and Core Image are two different things. QE uses GPU power for compositing, and only requires a something more than a GeForce2. All current Macs support Quartz Extreme -- Expose requires Quartz Extreme.
Core Image is basically using pixel shaders to accelerate various effects and filters (think Photoshop stuff) that wouldn't be possible in real-time without hardware support. The Mac mini won't support this (at least, this model won't), but I seriously doubt that it'll be much of a loss for most people. Tiger will still run perfectly well, just without a few bits of eyecandy, like the Dashboard droplet effect.
#27, The mac mini is based on the eMac logic board. The hard drive could be anything and doesn't determine what the computer is based on. Note also that the Mac mini has the same FSB as the eMac, but the iBook is slower. So the performance would be more like an eMac.
the mini will not get a fully gpu accelerated ui with tiger, at least thats what it looks like now. quartz 2d extreme needs a pixel shader 2.0 capable gpu, which the 9200 isnt. my main knocks against the mini are the 9200 (couldve used some nv 5200) and the 4200 rpm drives. 5400 rpm drives should be standard instead of the luck of the draw it seems like now.
course apple might pull some magic with tiger to get a form of quartz 2d extreme working with 9200s by the time it comes out so who knows till then.
and about imovie importing, if youre talking about importing from a dv cam, it can only go real time. any slower and youll drop frames, and i havent heard of any cams/decks that can transfer faster than real time (barring drive based cams with copyable files i guess).
#26 JP "The Mac mini is not based on a G4 laptop. It is based on the eMac."
Explain your view, please.
iBook & Man mini : 2.5" HDD & Slot-Load Combo Drive
eMac : 3.5" & Combo (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
iBook : 200pin SODIMM DDR PC2100 & ATi Mobility Radeon 9200 32MB
eMac & Mac mini : 184pin DIMM DDR PC2700 & ATi Radeon 9200 32MB
Seems to sit somewhere in between but the HDD and notebook optical drive on the Mac mini are going to give it performance more like the iBook than the eMac... no?
If Photoshop is on your Dock you can drag any thumbnail from it, onto the photoshop Icon and it will open in Photoshop. You and also drop it onto the desktop to get a copy of the file. This exports the full resolution image.
Anand, I've just tried to configure this Dell you mention in the article but I can't achieve the same price. Dell charge $99 shipping if the total price before rebate is less than $599 - so your $499 computer - if configurable would actually cost $599. The closest I could get was the following:
Dimension 3000
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor (2.80GHz, 533 FSB) - That's fast but power hungry and noisy
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home - 95% of OS X and XP Pro so I didn't upgrade
1Yr Ltd Warranty, 1Yr At-Home Service, and 1Yr Technical Support [add $19]
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 400MHz - More than mini
40GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive - faster 3.5"
Single Drive: 48x CD-RW / DVD-ROM Combo Drive - cheaper larger tray type
No Monitor [subtract $50] - same as mini
Integrated Audio - inferior to mini
IEEE 1394 Adapter - mini has Firewire too
No Speaker Option - mini has tiny speaker
Dell Quietkey Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse - better than mini
56K PCI Data/Fax Modem - same
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet - same
Mouse included with Keyboard purchase - better
Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics 2 - Shared RAM not as good as mini
No DVI as far as I could see
Software:
Paint Shop™ Pro® Studio trial, Photo Album™ Starter Edition
Dell Media Experience™
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 6.0
No Security Subscription - This is a novice essential
$627.00 - $50 with mail-in rebate = $577.00
So for $78 more than the mini, you get a larger, noisy, power hungry, fast depreciating ugly tower with a software bundle, despite what blckgrffn said, so lousy that Dell feel the need to list Acrobat Reader! The version of WordPerfect it comes with won't even read Word docs. But it does have a mouse and keyboard that Apple will sell for $38. So as close as I can get it the Mac is $40 cheaper and will hold more of it's value. Yet, no one can seriously argue that a novice PC doesn't need a Security software subscription - this adds $69 to the value of the Dell and it not costs $109 more than the mini. Who would argue that it isn't necessary to be able to open Word files? (Appleworks can open and save to various versions of Word) Well that version of WordPerfect costs another $49, taking the software to the minimum needed causes the Dell a REAL WORLD price of $695.
So the basic Dell Hardware with just Security software and .doc functionality is $695 (or $158 more than the Mac mini at $537)
Now what happens if I try to match ALL the software Anand was keen to ignore the value of? You choose how much to add depending on likely use:
McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months [add $69] - the mini doesn't need this
Mac OS X Panther, 10.3.7 - Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional [add $79]
iPhoto - Dell Picture Studio, Photo Album Premium [add $29]
iMovie - Last review I read Movie Maker only supported VCD
iDVD (with superdrive option) - Combo: RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe [add $79]
GarageBand - Band-in-a-Box $88
AppleWorks (Wordprocessor, Draw, Paint, Database, Spreadsheet), TextEdit - WordPerfect Office 12 Microsoft Office Compatible [add $49]
Now that doesn't cover what Apples software does but at least it can now, like Appleworks, produce .doc files
Quicken 2005 for Mac - Software Essentials Bundle: Adobe Elements, Microsoft Money Deluxe, Encarta [$39]
This clearly does more on Windows than the Mac so I'll balance by forgoing matching the games
Nanosaur 2
Marble Blast Gold
Adding it all comes to Dell Dimension 3000 Total = $1009
Just like Mephisto found above with the Cappuccino EZ3, the real world Dell price for a novice who isn't pirating software is TWICE that of the Mac mini when you realistically match software and hardware. I use match loosely because, while the PC will be faster and more upgradeable, it is poorer, without spending more money, on sound, graphics, size, noise, power, software, security, looks, stability and depreciation!
So Anand, this begs the obvious question. You've reviewed every flavor of mac... except the Xserve. I know you guys just built an uber-Opteron to power anandtech - how about doing some comparisons? Love to see your thoughts on that. What could you do with a cluster node, ahem?
#14 "Most people shopping for a $500 computer couldn't care less what it looks like"
They care what a $5 T-shirt looks like; where they live; what car they drive; who they go out with; what music is cool; that the iPod and their mobile phone make them look good; their furniture; even just how they write their name - but not their PC? Canon sells IXUS cameras because people love the looks; Sony sells everything on build and looks; but the PC doesn't matter?
Though PCs dawdle behind Macs by a couple of years in design even Michael Dell disagrees with you every time he rips off another Apple look. Bondi blue iMac sends the PC industry bolting pieces of transparent coloured plastic onto PCs - two years late. Titanium Powerbooks have them using grey plastic and calling everything Titanium. The minimalist Aluminium PowerBooks have been copied in the latest Dell laptops. Even AMD's ads for it's processors feature a guy smiling at an Apple PowerBook.
I think you are at risk of being an apologist for the lack of great PC design. I wouldn't be surprised if you argued that they don't care about reliability, malware, energy consumption, resale value or noise either. Frankly, I think you deserve a better product.
Also, iMovie is designed only for editing DV (HDV as well) video and the MPEG-4 movies that some digital cameras take. With these formats, there should be no importing. Any other video type, however, is converted to DV, so that's likely the delay you say. Even my 500 MHz iBook can import DV footage from a camera in real time, so for it's intended use, iMovie HD on the Mac mini should perform quite well.
I think you totally misunderstand Anand, blckgrffn, especially since he endorses (for a certain population) the mini.
They want a working computer for a very low price - maybe not the lowest, but they want a really great value. In my opinion, it is in this category that the mini mac will shine and grow outside it's 2% niche. The mini comes with all softs of software, including iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD, for making movies, organizing pictures, and making DVDs, as well as being proof against adware, spyware, viruses, and worms.
Dell aside, Apple probably has a big hit on their hands as it really does do everything your 3 year old Dell does, but doesn't suffer from any malware (yet) and does pictures, word processing, email, browsing, movies, and movies. I think this is timed perfectly (in 2005) to coincide with a wave of people upgrading their machines since XP came out and they can't stand all the problems their machines are having now. If it were released later, people would be buying new machines with XP SP 2, and if it were released earlier, it would have been too early in people's computer life cycles for it to see much uptake. Kind of like how the year 1999 was a good year, with people starting to feel the age of their 'new' computers bought with Windows 95.
Most people shopping for a $500 computer couldn't care less what it looks like, which I think was what Anand was getting too. They want a working computer for a ver low price - maybe not the lowest, but they want a really great value. In my opinion, it is in this category that the mini mac will fall short and remain coveted by 2% of the general population. That dell comes with all sorts of software, including Wordperfect for word processing.
It is also complete (w/monitor, etc.) and much more responsive for the price. So it is a moderate sized black dell- I think that Dells current market share indicates how much that hurts them. (I don't advocate buying Dells personally, just making an observation)
Thanks Mephisto. What I meant to ask was: How does the strength and range of the built-in wireless of the Mac mini compare with that of the PowerBook (bad) and ThinkPad (very good).
I have an iBook, and I agree, I get fantastic reception.
This is something Anand covered in the second article. He mentions the PowerBook has poorer reception than the Thinkpad.
Mac users have mentioned this for some time - in fact, ever since the release of the Titanium PowerBooks when responsiveness reduced. It is down to the metal case screening the signal.
iBooks are better in this regard because of their polycarbonate construction.
Good read. As other posters have mentioned it is not so black and white when comparing the Mac Mini to a budget PC. And where the Mac Mini really shines is the "grey area". With software, design and functionality. The Mac Mini is far from being the perfect low-end Mac that many have been wishing for for years, but it's a pretty good start. Thanks for the addition of your Mac section... it truly is appreciated.
The rather impressive software bundle that comes with the Mac mini:
Mac OS X Panther, 10.3.7
iLife ‘05 (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand)
Safari
Mail
Address Book
iSync
AppleWorks (Wordprocessor, Draw, Paint, Database, Spreadsheet)
Quicken 2005 for Mac
Nanosaur 2
Marble Blast Gold
Apple Hardware Test
That's a bundle a novice may well not need to add to... which isn't good news for Mac developers.
Anand,
Have you performed any testing on the internal 802.11g and bluetooth wireless?
I am wondering how the signal strength and range compares with the Powerbook and Thinkpad?
Much appreaciated, and great article (better than any of the "Mac" sites have done so far).
The article does seem to do a good job of showing where Apple chose to spend its money, and I think they did the right thing - focus on enabling the software rather than throwing in peripherals. They make sure that you can burn data/music/photo CDs and play DVDs, and that you have the ports needed to plug in things like DV cameras.
Dell and others play a shell game in that regard: you might have the monitor and the inputs, but there's precious little to actually DO with them.
Great article on all it covers save the one issue: PRICE.
Before I get on to that though - I'd like to say a big thanks! This site is now a regular read & recommendation - I can't say fairer than that.
Whether you wish for it or not you have become a big player in raising the standard of platform assessment. I can just hear PC sceptics saying: "But that's just some Macolyte's view" and Mac users responding: "Well take a look at the Anandtech reviews then." If that helps rationalise and civilise the debate you will have done the whole internet a service.
Back to price: I know that this subject is complicated by the many differences in the platforms and the great difficulty of assessing performance versus optimisation, and I'm not going to go into Total Cost of Ownership, resale, reliability or Tech Support Time/Cost which all fall heavily in the Mac's favour, but why is it that PC based writers appear almost scared to even try?
You approach the subject like this:
"The comparison above was very deliberately set up to focus on hardware alone, ignoring things like software differences and form factor differences."
and finish:
"The PC continues to be a better value from a hardware standpoint, there's no doubt about that."
I'm afraid there remains considerable doubt... because it is NOT the same hardware. You might as well have said: 3.5" drives are cheaper than 2.5" ones.
Apple did not make the cheapest Mac they possible could out of the cheapest possible components. Had they done so it would have been bigger and used full sized components. Most pundits suspect that this is because they did not wish to jeopardise iMac sales.
We can discuss whether, or not, that was a smart move but what is clear is that you have not compared like with like. You have then hamstrung the Mac by saying - let's ignore the software (not even mentioning Appleworks which, though old, is very useful for children and uncomplicated text, drawing and spreadsheets)... Why? It is very good, very useful and likely to be used by almost everyone who buys this type of computer. It almost seems to be trying to apologise for the fact that in order to achieve similar but poorer functionality you will have to pay for extra several extra programs for the Dell.
You have compared a bare truck with a VW Golf and said: Ignoring comfort, interior, reliability, ride quality and looks you get more iron for your money with the truck... so it is clearly better value. That isn't at all convincing.
So I went looking for a "PC mini". Knowledgeable as you are I suspect you may well be able to do better but the closest thing to it I could find was the Cappuccino EZ3. This is marketed as "Smallest Pentium III, Economical PC": http://www.cappuccinopc.com/
Cappuccino EZ3 - Barebone system¹ Silver, $325 157x146x46 mm = 6.18 x 5.75 x 1.8
¹ The barebone system does not include CPU, memory, hard disk and CD drive, It includes the casing, motherboard, CPU heatsink and blower, AC/DC Power supply, driver disk and manual.
So, trying to match the Mac mini:
Intel® Pentium® III Processor @ 1.26GHz / 512K Cache Server OEM
PC133 SDRAM SODIMM 256MB
40GB 2.5" Ultra DMA 33/66 5400RPM Hard Drive
Slim 24x12x24x8 CD-ReWritable Drive + DVD Combo (Slot Loading)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Integrated Intel 810/815 Graphic Controller
Firewire & USB
Ethernet
Modem
Smaller than Mac mini which is 165x165x50mm = 6.5"x6.5"x2"
No DVI
Wireless & bluetooth cannot be combined internally
No software other than Windows
Just 256MB RAM maximum and this is shared with Graphics chipset
Reading the article - looking like you've come up trumps again ... really useful disassembly.
On the issue of Command + W quitting iPhoto. This is a fairly recent practice, though it has echoes at least as far back as OS 8. Back then the control panels would quit with the closing of the window - the logic being that one never has two windows of the same control panel. Move forward to Jaguar and the now grouped control panels System Preferences don't quit with the closing of the window... inconsistent with the Classic OS. Panther reverted to the earlier behaviour and Sys. Prefs. now quit on Command + W.
What you have noticed is that this practise has been extended to any application which only ever has one window. Yes, it muddies the clear distinction between Quitting and Window closing but it does have a logic to it:- If the window of a one window application is being closed the user must have finished with it.
My vote goes with you on this one - I liked the clear distinction.
I'm surprised the Mac people didn't start screaming out IT'S A LOGIC BOARD not a MOTHERBOARD :)
It does take some time like for myself when I started doing Mac support to get the correct Mac terminology down.
Interesting you pointed out the price differences at the beginning, so you are probably thinking the same thing I am, the PC market is starting to get slightly worried about the Mac Mini taking over PC market share. Mac - No popups, no viruses no expensive software to contiuously buy where the opposite doesn't hold true for PC.
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34 Comments
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Coombs - Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - link
Anand,Can you comment on these mods and the mysterious connector in the Mac mini?
http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/macmini/macmini_i...
http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/macmini/
Anonymous - Thursday, February 3, 2005 - link
"I think the reviewer is not considering the larger picture. With the Mac mini you get OS X."Big deal. Get a used G3 mac and buy OS X for $99 bucks.
James - Sunday, January 30, 2005 - link
I'm looking forward to getting a Macintosh mini -- but will try to wait until it comes with OS X 10.4 installed.I've seen numerous price comparisons between the Mac mini and various lowend Microsoft Windows machines. When the conclusion is "we found that we could buy a Dell PC for $67 less," I think the reviewer is not considering the larger picture. With the Mac mini you get OS X. That alone is worth the price of admission, in my experience. What's that line about people who know the cost of everything but the value of nothing?
Thanks for your excellent reporting.
Nick - Thursday, January 27, 2005 - link
#28 : Quartz Extreme and Core Image are two different things. QE uses GPU power for compositing, and only requires a something more than a GeForce2. All current Macs support Quartz Extreme -- Expose requires Quartz Extreme.Core Image is basically using pixel shaders to accelerate various effects and filters (think Photoshop stuff) that wouldn't be possible in real-time without hardware support. The Mac mini won't support this (at least, this model won't), but I seriously doubt that it'll be much of a loss for most people. Tiger will still run perfectly well, just without a few bits of eyecandy, like the Dashboard droplet effect.
FlameDeer - Thursday, January 27, 2005 - link
Very nice Mac mini! Really tempting PC users! :)hopejr - Thursday, January 27, 2005 - link
#27, The mac mini is based on the eMac logic board. The hard drive could be anything and doesn't determine what the computer is based on. Note also that the Mac mini has the same FSB as the eMac, but the iBook is slower. So the performance would be more like an eMac.japtor - Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - link
the mini will not get a fully gpu accelerated ui with tiger, at least thats what it looks like now. quartz 2d extreme needs a pixel shader 2.0 capable gpu, which the 9200 isnt. my main knocks against the mini are the 9200 (couldve used some nv 5200) and the 4200 rpm drives. 5400 rpm drives should be standard instead of the luck of the draw it seems like now.course apple might pull some magic with tiger to get a form of quartz 2d extreme working with 9200s by the time it comes out so who knows till then.
and about imovie importing, if youre talking about importing from a dv cam, it can only go real time. any slower and youll drop frames, and i havent heard of any cams/decks that can transfer faster than real time (barring drive based cams with copyable files i guess).
Mephisto - Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - link
#26 JP "The Mac mini is not based on a G4 laptop. It is based on the eMac."Explain your view, please.
iBook & Man mini : 2.5" HDD & Slot-Load Combo Drive
eMac : 3.5" & Combo (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
iBook : 200pin SODIMM DDR PC2100 & ATi Mobility Radeon 9200 32MB
eMac & Mac mini : 184pin DIMM DDR PC2700 & ATi Radeon 9200 32MB
Seems to sit somewhere in between but the HDD and notebook optical drive on the Mac mini are going to give it performance more like the iBook than the eMac... no?
JP - Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - link
The Mac mini is not based on a G4 laptop. It is based on the eMac.Michael2k - Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - link
Now I wonder... if Macs (and Mac users) have 3% marketshare, what do gamers get? Is it also 3%?And when I mean gamer, I mean people who spend more than $2k on their computers (though not necessarily all at once)
OoTLink - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
FWIW: The version of TextEdit that comes with OS X 10.3 can read and write Microsoft Word docs...Ganesha - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
iPhoto exporting tip...If Photoshop is on your Dock you can drag any thumbnail from it, onto the photoshop Icon and it will open in Photoshop. You and also drop it onto the desktop to get a copy of the file. This exports the full resolution image.
Darwin - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Anand, I've just tried to configure this Dell you mention in the article but I can't achieve the same price. Dell charge $99 shipping if the total price before rebate is less than $599 - so your $499 computer - if configurable would actually cost $599. The closest I could get was the following:Dimension 3000
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor (2.80GHz, 533 FSB) - That's fast but power hungry and noisy
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home - 95% of OS X and XP Pro so I didn't upgrade
1Yr Ltd Warranty, 1Yr At-Home Service, and 1Yr Technical Support [add $19]
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 400MHz - More than mini
40GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive - faster 3.5"
Single Drive: 48x CD-RW / DVD-ROM Combo Drive - cheaper larger tray type
No Monitor [subtract $50] - same as mini
Integrated Audio - inferior to mini
IEEE 1394 Adapter - mini has Firewire too
No Speaker Option - mini has tiny speaker
Dell Quietkey Keyboard and Dell 2-button Scroll Mouse - better than mini
56K PCI Data/Fax Modem - same
Integrated 10/100 Ethernet - same
Mouse included with Keyboard purchase - better
Integrated Intel® Extreme Graphics 2 - Shared RAM not as good as mini
No DVI as far as I could see
Software:
Paint Shop™ Pro® Studio trial, Photo Album™ Starter Edition
Dell Media Experience™
Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 6.0
No Security Subscription - This is a novice essential
$627.00 - $50 with mail-in rebate = $577.00
So for $78 more than the mini, you get a larger, noisy, power hungry, fast depreciating ugly tower with a software bundle, despite what blckgrffn said, so lousy that Dell feel the need to list Acrobat Reader! The version of WordPerfect it comes with won't even read Word docs. But it does have a mouse and keyboard that Apple will sell for $38. So as close as I can get it the Mac is $40 cheaper and will hold more of it's value. Yet, no one can seriously argue that a novice PC doesn't need a Security software subscription - this adds $69 to the value of the Dell and it not costs $109 more than the mini. Who would argue that it isn't necessary to be able to open Word files? (Appleworks can open and save to various versions of Word) Well that version of WordPerfect costs another $49, taking the software to the minimum needed causes the Dell a REAL WORLD price of $695.
So the basic Dell Hardware with just Security software and .doc functionality is $695 (or $158 more than the Mac mini at $537)
Now what happens if I try to match ALL the software Anand was keen to ignore the value of? You choose how much to add depending on likely use:
McAfee SecurityCenter 15-months [add $69] - the mini doesn't need this
Mac OS X Panther, 10.3.7 - Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional [add $79]
iPhoto - Dell Picture Studio, Photo Album Premium [add $29]
iMovie - Last review I read Movie Maker only supported VCD
iDVD (with superdrive option) - Combo: RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe [add $79]
GarageBand - Band-in-a-Box $88
AppleWorks (Wordprocessor, Draw, Paint, Database, Spreadsheet), TextEdit - WordPerfect Office 12 Microsoft Office Compatible [add $49]
Now that doesn't cover what Apples software does but at least it can now, like Appleworks, produce .doc files
Quicken 2005 for Mac - Software Essentials Bundle: Adobe Elements, Microsoft Money Deluxe, Encarta [$39]
This clearly does more on Windows than the Mac so I'll balance by forgoing matching the games
Nanosaur 2
Marble Blast Gold
Adding it all comes to Dell Dimension 3000 Total = $1009
Just like Mephisto found above with the Cappuccino EZ3, the real world Dell price for a novice who isn't pirating software is TWICE that of the Mac mini when you realistically match software and hardware. I use match loosely because, while the PC will be faster and more upgradeable, it is poorer, without spending more money, on sound, graphics, size, noise, power, software, security, looks, stability and depreciation!
galactusofmyth - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
So Anand, this begs the obvious question. You've reviewed every flavor of mac... except the Xserve. I know you guys just built an uber-Opteron to power anandtech - how about doing some comparisons? Love to see your thoughts on that. What could you do with a cluster node, ahem?Mephisto - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
#14 "Most people shopping for a $500 computer couldn't care less what it looks like"They care what a $5 T-shirt looks like; where they live; what car they drive; who they go out with; what music is cool; that the iPod and their mobile phone make them look good; their furniture; even just how they write their name - but not their PC? Canon sells IXUS cameras because people love the looks; Sony sells everything on build and looks; but the PC doesn't matter?
Though PCs dawdle behind Macs by a couple of years in design even Michael Dell disagrees with you every time he rips off another Apple look. Bondi blue iMac sends the PC industry bolting pieces of transparent coloured plastic onto PCs - two years late. Titanium Powerbooks have them using grey plastic and calling everything Titanium. The minimalist Aluminium PowerBooks have been copied in the latest Dell laptops. Even AMD's ads for it's processors feature a guy smiling at an Apple PowerBook.
I think you are at risk of being an apologist for the lack of great PC design. I wouldn't be surprised if you argued that they don't care about reliability, malware, energy consumption, resale value or noise either. Frankly, I think you deserve a better product.
Anonymous - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Where is the sam hell is the half-life 2 cpu scaling article?Jon - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Also, iMovie is designed only for editing DV (HDV as well) video and the MPEG-4 movies that some digital cameras take. With these formats, there should be no importing. Any other video type, however, is converted to DV, so that's likely the delay you say. Even my 500 MHz iBook can import DV footage from a camera in real time, so for it's intended use, iMovie HD on the Mac mini should perform quite well.Jon - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Anand, TextEdit can open Word document, although only fairly simple ones.gnumantsc - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Yes those Mac people did wonder what the heck I was saying when I did support MS's Mac products... The what now? Oh sorry sir, I meant Logic Board.Anand, can you donate the mac mini to me? (always wondered where the stuff goes after they are reviewed)
I think Mac Mini will take a bite out of the Linux share and some Windows share in the market.
Michael2k - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
I think you totally misunderstand Anand, blckgrffn, especially since he endorses (for a certain population) the mini.They want a working computer for a very low price - maybe not the lowest, but they want a really great value. In my opinion, it is in this category that the mini mac will shine and grow outside it's 2% niche. The mini comes with all softs of software, including iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD, for making movies, organizing pictures, and making DVDs, as well as being proof against adware, spyware, viruses, and worms.
Dell aside, Apple probably has a big hit on their hands as it really does do everything your 3 year old Dell does, but doesn't suffer from any malware (yet) and does pictures, word processing, email, browsing, movies, and movies. I think this is timed perfectly (in 2005) to coincide with a wave of people upgrading their machines since XP came out and they can't stand all the problems their machines are having now. If it were released later, people would be buying new machines with XP SP 2, and if it were released earlier, it would have been too early in people's computer life cycles for it to see much uptake. Kind of like how the year 1999 was a good year, with people starting to feel the age of their 'new' computers bought with Windows 95.
blckgrffn - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Most people shopping for a $500 computer couldn't care less what it looks like, which I think was what Anand was getting too. They want a working computer for a ver low price - maybe not the lowest, but they want a really great value. In my opinion, it is in this category that the mini mac will fall short and remain coveted by 2% of the general population. That dell comes with all sorts of software, including Wordperfect for word processing.It is also complete (w/monitor, etc.) and much more responsive for the price. So it is a moderate sized black dell- I think that Dells current market share indicates how much that hurts them. (I don't advocate buying Dells personally, just making an observation)
David Smith - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
It's "logic board" not motherboard? Since when? I've always used the two terms interchangeably (and I'm a Mac programmer...)maharajah - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
#11,#8Thanks Mephisto. What I meant to ask was: How does the strength and range of the built-in wireless of the Mac mini compare with that of the PowerBook (bad) and ThinkPad (very good).
I have an iBook, and I agree, I get fantastic reception.
Mephisto - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
#8 WiFi signal strength in the PowerBookThis is something Anand covered in the second article. He mentions the PowerBook has poorer reception than the Thinkpad.
Mac users have mentioned this for some time - in fact, ever since the release of the Titanium PowerBooks when responsiveness reduced. It is down to the metal case screening the signal.
iBooks are better in this regard because of their polycarbonate construction.
Patrick - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Good read. As other posters have mentioned it is not so black and white when comparing the Mac Mini to a budget PC. And where the Mac Mini really shines is the "grey area". With software, design and functionality. The Mac Mini is far from being the perfect low-end Mac that many have been wishing for for years, but it's a pretty good start. Thanks for the addition of your Mac section... it truly is appreciated.Mephisto - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
The rather impressive software bundle that comes with the Mac mini:Mac OS X Panther, 10.3.7
iLife ‘05 (includes iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD and GarageBand)
Safari
Mail
Address Book
iSync
AppleWorks (Wordprocessor, Draw, Paint, Database, Spreadsheet)
Quicken 2005 for Mac
Nanosaur 2
Marble Blast Gold
Apple Hardware Test
That's a bundle a novice may well not need to add to... which isn't good news for Mac developers.
maharajah - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Anand,Have you performed any testing on the internal 802.11g and bluetooth wireless?
I am wondering how the signal strength and range compares with the Powerbook and Thinkpad?
Much appreaciated, and great article (better than any of the "Mac" sites have done so far).
Commodus - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
The article does seem to do a good job of showing where Apple chose to spend its money, and I think they did the right thing - focus on enabling the software rather than throwing in peripherals. They make sure that you can burn data/music/photo CDs and play DVDs, and that you have the ports needed to plug in things like DV cameras.Dell and others play a shell game in that regard: you might have the monitor and the inputs, but there's precious little to actually DO with them.
Mephisto - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Great article on all it covers save the one issue: PRICE.Before I get on to that though - I'd like to say a big thanks! This site is now a regular read & recommendation - I can't say fairer than that.
Whether you wish for it or not you have become a big player in raising the standard of platform assessment. I can just hear PC sceptics saying: "But that's just some Macolyte's view" and Mac users responding: "Well take a look at the Anandtech reviews then." If that helps rationalise and civilise the debate you will have done the whole internet a service.
Back to price: I know that this subject is complicated by the many differences in the platforms and the great difficulty of assessing performance versus optimisation, and I'm not going to go into Total Cost of Ownership, resale, reliability or Tech Support Time/Cost which all fall heavily in the Mac's favour, but why is it that PC based writers appear almost scared to even try?
You approach the subject like this:
"The comparison above was very deliberately set up to focus on hardware alone, ignoring things like software differences and form factor differences."
and finish:
"The PC continues to be a better value from a hardware standpoint, there's no doubt about that."
I'm afraid there remains considerable doubt... because it is NOT the same hardware. You might as well have said: 3.5" drives are cheaper than 2.5" ones.
Apple did not make the cheapest Mac they possible could out of the cheapest possible components. Had they done so it would have been bigger and used full sized components. Most pundits suspect that this is because they did not wish to jeopardise iMac sales.
We can discuss whether, or not, that was a smart move but what is clear is that you have not compared like with like. You have then hamstrung the Mac by saying - let's ignore the software (not even mentioning Appleworks which, though old, is very useful for children and uncomplicated text, drawing and spreadsheets)... Why? It is very good, very useful and likely to be used by almost everyone who buys this type of computer. It almost seems to be trying to apologise for the fact that in order to achieve similar but poorer functionality you will have to pay for extra several extra programs for the Dell.
You have compared a bare truck with a VW Golf and said: Ignoring comfort, interior, reliability, ride quality and looks you get more iron for your money with the truck... so it is clearly better value. That isn't at all convincing.
So I went looking for a "PC mini". Knowledgeable as you are I suspect you may well be able to do better but the closest thing to it I could find was the Cappuccino EZ3. This is marketed as "Smallest Pentium III, Economical PC": http://www.cappuccinopc.com/
Incidentally, the guys at SlashDot couldn't come up with a PC that could get anywhere close to the Mac mini on size/price/performance (http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/05/01/19/21325...
Cappuccino EZ3 - Barebone system¹ Silver, $325 157x146x46 mm = 6.18 x 5.75 x 1.8
¹ The barebone system does not include CPU, memory, hard disk and CD drive, It includes the casing, motherboard, CPU heatsink and blower, AC/DC Power supply, driver disk and manual.
So, trying to match the Mac mini:
Intel® Pentium® III Processor @ 1.26GHz / 512K Cache Server OEM
PC133 SDRAM SODIMM 256MB
40GB 2.5" Ultra DMA 33/66 5400RPM Hard Drive
Slim 24x12x24x8 CD-ReWritable Drive + DVD Combo (Slot Loading)
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
Integrated Intel 810/815 Graphic Controller
Firewire & USB
Ethernet
Modem
Smaller than Mac mini which is 165x165x50mm = 6.5"x6.5"x2"
No DVI
Wireless & bluetooth cannot be combined internally
No software other than Windows
Just 256MB RAM maximum and this is shared with Graphics chipset
$1,048.00 (shipping and handling extra)
The Mini looks a steal at $500 doesn't it?
vrln - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Thanks for the great article, it's really appreciated.hopejr - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
#2, lol. I'm still getting used to "logic board" not mobo too.Good point #3. I had a whinge about sys prefs doing that the other day.
It was a great article Anand!
Mephisto - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Reading the article - looking like you've come up trumps again ... really useful disassembly.On the issue of Command + W quitting iPhoto. This is a fairly recent practice, though it has echoes at least as far back as OS 8. Back then the control panels would quit with the closing of the window - the logic being that one never has two windows of the same control panel. Move forward to Jaguar and the now grouped control panels System Preferences don't quit with the closing of the window... inconsistent with the Classic OS. Panther reverted to the earlier behaviour and Sys. Prefs. now quit on Command + W.
What you have noticed is that this practise has been extended to any application which only ever has one window. Yes, it muddies the clear distinction between Quitting and Window closing but it does have a logic to it:- If the window of a one window application is being closed the user must have finished with it.
My vote goes with you on this one - I liked the clear distinction.
gnumantsc - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
I'm surprised the Mac people didn't start screaming out IT'S A LOGIC BOARD not a MOTHERBOARD :)It does take some time like for myself when I started doing Mac support to get the correct Mac terminology down.
Interesting you pointed out the price differences at the beginning, so you are probably thinking the same thing I am, the PC market is starting to get slightly worried about the Mac Mini taking over PC market share. Mac - No popups, no viruses no expensive software to contiuously buy where the opposite doesn't hold true for PC.
hopejr - Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - link
Up so quick? You're a legend! Off to read it....