Just like the GigaByte Extreme and MIS Platinum MB's HyBrid cooling is now synonymous with Water cooling with air fall back capability.
I think Asus are distorting this meaning.
Where are Video cards with built on water cooling pipes? I don't thing gfx cards have come nearly far enough yet.
I assuming you are explaining about heat pipes. Yes they act like water cooling, but they act on the concepts of evaporative cooling that contains no moving parts. Combining heat pipes with passive cooling increases efficiency of the heat sink with out the awkward and bulkiness setup of water cooling.
Water cooling is more of a mod than a neccessary for video cards and other computer components. With use of heat sinks and heat pipes water cooling is not needed. IMHO, water cooling is not as efficient as air cooling on terms of area and price.
ASUS is not distorting the term hybrid. ASUS wants to suit two kinds of people. One is extreme gamers and others silent PC/efficiency. Their circuitry suits both areas while in the past users have to give up either area for want they want most.
Maybe it's not just a coincidence that the "HybridPower" is a part of the card's name, because the Nvidia same named function works similar: silent in 2D with lower power consumption using only the motherboard's IGP, and in 3D works on full power with active cooling using the external GPU. So for a function like this there is alternate way when using Nvidia cards, but on AMD/ATI side, only the 4850 Matrix version will be available (yet).
The card's price will be a serious question, because the MSI's 9600 GT Hybrid Freezer are priced too high (more than double of the cheapest 9600 GT's, here in Hungary), and I saw (at only one place) the price of the 9600 GT Matrix too, and it was more than 50% higher than the cheapest one (nearly as much as the cheapest 4850).
Don't be optimistic. Asus has good BIOS programmers but almost everything they produce as a GUI has major problems. Read the forums on Asus SmartDoctor and AISuite (or whatever it's called). I got all those with my Rampage mobo and Asus 4850 graphics board and - ignoring all advice to the contrary - installed them. Everyone was right: the few parts that did work were useless. In fact the most useful Asus program was one they didn't include - PC Probe II. That did work, and pretty well too, IF you can find it. But it's the exception that proves the rule. I don't have much any hope for this even more complex new idea.
I wholeheartly agree with Arbie! Good Anandtech guys, if you speak with Asus about this, please tell them that they've got something great there - but to make it a success they have to do much better than most of their utilities so far.
I want a tool which offers at least as much functionality for the power user as ATI Tray tool and which brings GPU voltage control for NV cards (F*ck overvolting - these GPU are hot enough, we need the ability to undervolt). Switching between profiles with a maximum of 2 clicks via a tray icon has to be possible as well as automatic switching, i.e. upon launch / exit of an app. And to round the package a non-power user has to be able to make good use of the presets. These are the basics which just have to work.
If they work properly we could take things a little further. There are 2 major problems which I find untouched since years:
- why always try to maximize fps? I'd so much prefer to set a target frame rate (and I choose if it's 30 or 300 fps) and if the GPU is fast enough in older games it could just throttle down a bit and save power and prolong its life and the life of my ears. I suspect this would require working together with NV though.
- GP-GPU: thanks to CUDA NV cards can now run folding@home and GPU-Grid under BOINC. However, these GPUs and their cooling systems are not build for such loads. Let NV say their chips are fine running at 70 or 90°C 24/7 - they're not.
What I have in mind here: either have a manufacturer spec or have this little Asus software run a test on your GPU (either at a specified temperature or a fixed fan speed, or both) which voltage it requires for which clock speed. With such a profile you could dynamically adjust clock and voltage according to
* needed performance in 3D, see above
* maximum allowed temperature and fan speed (i.e. crunching 24/7)
while always remaining in an efficient operating regime, i.e. not giving the GPU more voltage than it actually needs. This saves power, enables quieter systems and prolongs the life span of the cards.
On the software side this could be as easy as that: you open the tool, select "economic mode", it asks you for the maximum fan speed and maximum temperature (while suggesting reasonable presets). You have a slider for the fan speed where you can hear the noise live. When you click "apply" the tool asks you, if it should detect the optimal voltages for your specific GPU (would need proper safety margins here) or just use the values supplied by NV. Done is your 24/7 setup. There should also be an advanced option to set the voltages yourself ;) And there's of course the game profile, where you allow higher fan speeds and temperatures because this load is run for shorter times.
This idea may not be too revolutionary, because it's really just cool and quiet / speed step for GPUs .. but I had this idea since a looong time ;) And with the current move to "green" there might finally be an opportunity to make GPUs run efficiently!
(BTW: and why is the example 9800GT still using 30W in idle mode with the improvements?! It turns down voltage and clock speed and power mixer should switch unused parts of the chip off.. what's using so much power there?!)
I agree, but the only way they can easily support both Windows and Linux is using Qt libraries to ease GUI design. Driver design will be a different story.
My fear with something like this is special drivers. Anytime a card needs special drivers they tend to lag behind... they also become unsupported much quicker.
Hah, you mean NVidia drivers, they are unsupported. Having endured NVidia drivers for my motherboard and video card I am glad to have switched to ATI this summer.
Drivers are leaps and bounds ahead of NVidia's. ATI's control panel is quick and responsive compared with NVidia's which performed like it was a web page crawling down a 14.4K modem.
I assume you are explaining about Vista. nVidia proprietary drivers works well in Linux. Their utility, nvidia-settings, is easy to use and responsive.
I think nVidia driver for Windows Vista is trying to resemble the web page feel that Vista uses for its control panel interface. I think it is more of a Windows Vista problem than nVidia's problem because it happens with other hardware settings.
Funny, the same applies to me - just that it happened in fall 2007. After the chipset (NF4) and videocard (GF7) driver debacle for Vista, I gave up and moved to Intel for chipset and AMD for videocard - no regrets as far as drivers go even if neither of them is perfect, but they give you (the customer) the feeling that they wont stop caring about you at all after they got your money and release a couple new products that replace what you are still using and will be using for some more time.
Nvidia doesnt exist anymore, as far as my wallet is concerned.
As these card always get tested in 2D pre 3D mode, there is never a word about how noise these card are in video playback mode ore is that the same as 2D mode ???
It looks like ASUS is planning to further reduce 2D clocks, thus reducing noise from fans required to cool the GPU, in addition to increasing cooling in high performance 3D mode. Potentially, this could be both a quiet HTPC solution as well as a powerful gaming solution. That said, I think serious gamers would be more interested in seeing this on GTX 260/280 rather than the aging 9800 GT (which is just a rebadged 8800 GT 512MB).
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17 Comments
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thebeastie - Sunday, September 7, 2008 - link
Just like the GigaByte Extreme and MIS Platinum MB's HyBrid cooling is now synonymous with Water cooling with air fall back capability.I think Asus are distorting this meaning.
Where are Video cards with built on water cooling pipes? I don't thing gfx cards have come nearly far enough yet.
jmurbank - Monday, September 8, 2008 - link
I assuming you are explaining about heat pipes. Yes they act like water cooling, but they act on the concepts of evaporative cooling that contains no moving parts. Combining heat pipes with passive cooling increases efficiency of the heat sink with out the awkward and bulkiness setup of water cooling.Water cooling is more of a mod than a neccessary for video cards and other computer components. With use of heat sinks and heat pipes water cooling is not needed. IMHO, water cooling is not as efficient as air cooling on terms of area and price.
ASUS is not distorting the term hybrid. ASUS wants to suit two kinds of people. One is extreme gamers and others silent PC/efficiency. Their circuitry suits both areas while in the past users have to give up either area for want they want most.
FYI, it is Hybrid not Hybird, dumb ass.
Kobaljov - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
Maybe it's not just a coincidence that the "HybridPower" is a part of the card's name, because the Nvidia same named function works similar: silent in 2D with lower power consumption using only the motherboard's IGP, and in 3D works on full power with active cooling using the external GPU. So for a function like this there is alternate way when using Nvidia cards, but on AMD/ATI side, only the 4850 Matrix version will be available (yet).The card's price will be a serious question, because the MSI's 9600 GT Hybrid Freezer are priced too high (more than double of the cheapest 9600 GT's, here in Hungary), and I saw (at only one place) the price of the 9600 GT Matrix too, and it was more than 50% higher than the cheapest one (nearly as much as the cheapest 4850).
Arbie - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
Don't be optimistic. Asus has good BIOS programmers but almost everything they produce as a GUI has major problems. Read the forums on Asus SmartDoctor and AISuite (or whatever it's called). I got all those with my Rampage mobo and Asus 4850 graphics board and - ignoring all advice to the contrary - installed them. Everyone was right: the few parts that did work were useless. In fact the most useful Asus program was one they didn't include - PC Probe II. That did work, and pretty well too, IF you can find it. But it's the exception that proves the rule. I don't have much any hope for this even more complex new idea.Arbie
MrSpadge - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
I wholeheartly agree with Arbie! Good Anandtech guys, if you speak with Asus about this, please tell them that they've got something great there - but to make it a success they have to do much better than most of their utilities so far.I want a tool which offers at least as much functionality for the power user as ATI Tray tool and which brings GPU voltage control for NV cards (F*ck overvolting - these GPU are hot enough, we need the ability to undervolt). Switching between profiles with a maximum of 2 clicks via a tray icon has to be possible as well as automatic switching, i.e. upon launch / exit of an app. And to round the package a non-power user has to be able to make good use of the presets. These are the basics which just have to work.
If they work properly we could take things a little further. There are 2 major problems which I find untouched since years:
- why always try to maximize fps? I'd so much prefer to set a target frame rate (and I choose if it's 30 or 300 fps) and if the GPU is fast enough in older games it could just throttle down a bit and save power and prolong its life and the life of my ears. I suspect this would require working together with NV though.
- GP-GPU: thanks to CUDA NV cards can now run folding@home and GPU-Grid under BOINC. However, these GPUs and their cooling systems are not build for such loads. Let NV say their chips are fine running at 70 or 90°C 24/7 - they're not.
What I have in mind here: either have a manufacturer spec or have this little Asus software run a test on your GPU (either at a specified temperature or a fixed fan speed, or both) which voltage it requires for which clock speed. With such a profile you could dynamically adjust clock and voltage according to
* needed performance in 3D, see above
* maximum allowed temperature and fan speed (i.e. crunching 24/7)
while always remaining in an efficient operating regime, i.e. not giving the GPU more voltage than it actually needs. This saves power, enables quieter systems and prolongs the life span of the cards.
On the software side this could be as easy as that: you open the tool, select "economic mode", it asks you for the maximum fan speed and maximum temperature (while suggesting reasonable presets). You have a slider for the fan speed where you can hear the noise live. When you click "apply" the tool asks you, if it should detect the optimal voltages for your specific GPU (would need proper safety margins here) or just use the values supplied by NV. Done is your 24/7 setup. There should also be an advanced option to set the voltages yourself ;) And there's of course the game profile, where you allow higher fan speeds and temperatures because this load is run for shorter times.
This idea may not be too revolutionary, because it's really just cool and quiet / speed step for GPUs .. but I had this idea since a looong time ;) And with the current move to "green" there might finally be an opportunity to make GPUs run efficiently!
(BTW: and why is the example 9800GT still using 30W in idle mode with the improvements?! It turns down voltage and clock speed and power mixer should switch unused parts of the chip off.. what's using so much power there?!)
MrS
loopandjump - Friday, September 5, 2008 - link
I'll be awesome if this works in linux as well!!jmurbank - Monday, September 8, 2008 - link
I agree, but the only way they can easily support both Windows and Linux is using Qt libraries to ease GUI design. Driver design will be a different story.bjacobson - Friday, September 5, 2008 - link
I'm confused how the passive is supposed to work. From the demonstration the heat "rises by convection".But the graphics card is oriented with the heatsink down in most mini-tower computers.
Griswold - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
The primary target audience of this doesnt care or know about thermodynamics.VooDooAddict - Friday, September 5, 2008 - link
My fear with something like this is special drivers. Anytime a card needs special drivers they tend to lag behind... they also become unsupported much quicker.GTVic - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
Hah, you mean NVidia drivers, they are unsupported. Having endured NVidia drivers for my motherboard and video card I am glad to have switched to ATI this summer.Drivers are leaps and bounds ahead of NVidia's. ATI's control panel is quick and responsive compared with NVidia's which performed like it was a web page crawling down a 14.4K modem.
jmurbank - Monday, September 8, 2008 - link
I assume you are explaining about Vista. nVidia proprietary drivers works well in Linux. Their utility, nvidia-settings, is easy to use and responsive.I think nVidia driver for Windows Vista is trying to resemble the web page feel that Vista uses for its control panel interface. I think it is more of a Windows Vista problem than nVidia's problem because it happens with other hardware settings.
Griswold - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
Funny, the same applies to me - just that it happened in fall 2007. After the chipset (NF4) and videocard (GF7) driver debacle for Vista, I gave up and moved to Intel for chipset and AMD for videocard - no regrets as far as drivers go even if neither of them is perfect, but they give you (the customer) the feeling that they wont stop caring about you at all after they got your money and release a couple new products that replace what you are still using and will be using for some more time.Nvidia doesnt exist anymore, as far as my wallet is concerned.
Havor - Friday, September 5, 2008 - link
As these card always get tested in 2D pre 3D mode, there is never a word about how noise these card are in video playback mode ore is that the same as 2D mode ???JarredWalton - Friday, September 5, 2008 - link
It looks like ASUS is planning to further reduce 2D clocks, thus reducing noise from fans required to cool the GPU, in addition to increasing cooling in high performance 3D mode. Potentially, this could be both a quiet HTPC solution as well as a powerful gaming solution. That said, I think serious gamers would be more interested in seeing this on GTX 260/280 rather than the aging 9800 GT (which is just a rebadged 8800 GT 512MB).Havor - Saturday, September 6, 2008 - link
I agree whit you that a 2x0 GTX is for a lot of people interesting but on the other hand they are way to hot for a HTPCI was just wondering if this was a G92b GPU and if it would be silent during video playback.
as i have a 1080p TV and beamer i like to play games on that resolution do for some games its to high res. for my 8600 i have now :-(
Polynikes - Friday, September 5, 2008 - link
Looking forward to the review, if you can make it happen.